Sign in
Search piclist
Subscribe to piclist
piclist by Keywords
12F675 | 16F628 | 16F84 | 16f877 | 16F877A | 16F88 | 18F458 | ADC | AVR | Bootloader | CAN | CCS | CRC | EAGLE | EEPROM | ICD | ICSP | IDE | JDM | LED | Macros | Microchip | MPLAB | PCB-CAD | PIC10F | Pic12f675 | PIC16F84 | PIC16F84A | PIC16F877 | PIC18 | PIC18F452 | PicBasic | PICC | PICSTART | PWM | RS-485 | RS232 | SMT | SPI | UART | USART | USB | Wireless | Wisp628 | Xilinx
Ads
Discussion Groups
See Also
Discussion Groups | Piclist | Wireless Development with PICs
A discussion group for the PICMicro microcontroller. Also called the Microchip PIC, this list is dedicated to the use and abuse of this fine, simple, microcontroller. Close to topic posts are welcome, ie. general electronics.
Wireless Development with PICs - Ashwin Shankar - Aug 16 17:49:00 2003
|
Hi, I'm curious to find out if anyone out there has/wants to use PICs as controllers for RF communications. I'm currently working on a standalone embedded board with integrated wireless capability. The current processor revision is using a RT-Java Embedded. The package will come standard with a mesh networking software library in Java (Microchip-compatible C code currently in development) to implement p2p communication out-of-the-box. I'm trying to figure out if there is a need for developers to use PICS as part of wireless systems. Before anyone mentions the rfPICS that MicroChip has, the wireless chipset I'm using is in the 2.4 GHz frequency, as well as supporting upto 1.5Mbps data streams. So it's not really the same targeted userbase. I'd appreciate a developer's point-of-view critique of the concept and what I should be focusing on. Thanks, Ashwin |
|
|
(You need to be a member of piclist -- send a blank email to piclist-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: Wireless Development with PICs - Chad Russel - Aug 17 12:53:00 2003
|
Maybe exactly what I am looking for, but there are too many other specific requirements. I was considering doing it myself with Tiny OS. Do you have any preliminary specs? Chad --- Ashwin Shankar <> wrote: > Hi, > I'm curious to find out if anyone out there has/wants to use PICs as > controllers for RF communications. I'm currently working on a > standalone > embedded board with integrated wireless capability. The current > processor revision is using a RT-Java Embedded. The package will come > standard with a mesh networking software library in Java > (Microchip-compatible C code currently in development) to implement > p2p > communication out-of-the-box. > > I'm trying to figure out if there is a need for developers to use > PICS > as part of wireless systems. Before anyone mentions the rfPICS that > MicroChip has, the wireless chipset I'm using is in the 2.4 GHz > frequency, as well as supporting upto 1.5Mbps data streams. So it's > not > really the same targeted userbase. > > I'd appreciate a developer's point-of-view critique of the concept > and > what I should be focusing on. > > Thanks, > Ashwin __________________________________ |
|
|
(You need to be a member of piclist -- send a blank email to piclist-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: Wireless Development with PICs - ashwiins - Aug 19 11:17:00 2003
|
Chad, Currently, we're working on processors by aJile systems. These processors execute native Java byte-code, and can support upto 2 JVMs natively. Clock speed would be about 100Mhz. Currently, we're trying to determine if there is enough processing power for the host controller to handle the baseband functionality as well as local tasks. If not, we'll have to use a PIC as the baseband controller. We are estimating 8MB of memory onboard. The RFIC we're using handles upto 1.5Mbps data streams, range is dependent on antenna design but can aggregate it out to about 100m and uses DSSS. We're about 4 months away from production. In the mean time, as I mentioned, I'm trying to figure out how to make this appealing to other developers. If you could let me know what kind of requirements you're looking for, it might help in pinpointing some key selling points. Thanks, Ashwin --- In , Chad Russel <chadrussel@y...> wrote: > Maybe exactly what I am looking for, but there are too many other > specific requirements. I was considering doing it myself with Tiny OS. > Do you have any preliminary specs? > > Chad > > --- Ashwin Shankar <ashwin@i...> wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm curious to find out if anyone out there has/wants to use PICs as > > controllers for RF communications. I'm currently working on a > > standalone > > embedded board with integrated wireless capability. The current > > processor revision is using a RT-Java Embedded. The package will come > > standard with a mesh networking software library in Java > > (Microchip-compatible C code currently in development) to implement > > p2p > > communication out-of-the-box. > > > > I'm trying to figure out if there is a need for developers to use > > PICS > > as part of wireless systems. Before anyone mentions the rfPICS that > > MicroChip has, the wireless chipset I'm using is in the 2.4 GHz > > frequency, as well as supporting upto 1.5Mbps data streams. So it's > > not > > really the same targeted userbase. > > > > I'd appreciate a developer's point-of-view critique of the concept > > and > > what I should be focusing on. > > > > Thanks, > > Ashwin > > __________________________________ |
|
|
(You need to be a member of piclist -- send a blank email to piclist-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: Re: Wireless Development with PICs - Chad Russel - Aug 19 23:22:00 2003
|
Ashwin, I did not notice before, but the data rate is much higher than I need, therefore cost, and power will also be too high. :-( The range is correct about 100 meters, but the average power must be fairly low ,i.e. < 0.02 watts, and I need to network up to ~500 devices. I will need to live with what ever speed can be done with these parameters. Regards, Chad --- ashwiins <> wrote: > Chad, > Currently, we're working on processors by aJile systems. These > processors execute native Java byte-code, and can support upto 2 JVMs > > natively. Clock speed would be about 100Mhz. Currently, we're trying > to determine if there is enough processing power for the host > controller to handle the baseband functionality as well as local > tasks. If not, we'll have to use a PIC as the baseband controller. We > > are estimating 8MB of memory onboard. > > The RFIC we're using handles upto 1.5Mbps data streams, range is > dependent on antenna design but can aggregate it out to about 100m > and > uses DSSS. > > We're about 4 months away from production. In the mean time, as I > mentioned, I'm trying to figure out how to make this appealing to > other developers. If you could let me know what kind of requirements > you're looking for, it might help in pinpointing some key selling > points. > > Thanks, > Ashwin > --- In , Chad Russel <chadrussel@y...> wrote: > > Maybe exactly what I am looking for, but there are too many other > > specific requirements. I was considering doing it myself with Tiny > > OS. > > Do you have any preliminary specs? > > > > Chad > > > > --- Ashwin Shankar <ashwin@i...> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > I'm curious to find out if anyone out there has/wants to use PICs > ****Snip**** __________________________________ |
|
|
Stellaris® MCU Family: New Parts, New Package, New Price.
(You need to be a member of piclist -- send a blank email to piclist-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: Wireless Development with PICs - ashwiins - Aug 20 11:57:00 2003
|
Chad, I would appreciate it if you would keep me informed of which radio you selected. I agree with data rate issues as well. The particular reason why we selected this one was to ensure that we can provide solutions in the 900Mhz/2.4Ghz/5.8Ghz ranges as well as ensure we can control transmit power based on signal strentgh received. Another reason we went with this chip was that the greater bandwith implies shorter burst times. So you're at peak output power for a shorter period of time. And there's is less network congestion due to shorter burst times. Also helps in handling more traffic if need be, like a second backbone. Are you planning to implement a TDMA model or a TDD model for communications timing? Cost-wise I'm not really sure if you're going to get something very cheap unless you opt for a rfPIC. Most radio modules out there on the market are in the region from $150-$300, course they have a bunch of features like node id, CRC, and encryption. I'd be interested in learning more about how you achieve the 100m range yet keep the power levels so low. Regards, Ashwin --- In , Chad Russel <chadrussel@y...> wrote: > Ashwin, > > I did not notice before, but the data rate is much higher than I need, > therefore cost, and power will also be too high. :-( The range is > correct about 100 meters, but the average power must be fairly low > ,i.e. < 0.02 watts, and I need to network up to ~500 devices. I will > need to live with what ever speed can be done with these parameters. > > Regards, > Chad |
|
|
(You need to be a member of piclist -- send a blank email to piclist-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: Re: Wireless Development with PICs - Chad Russel - Aug 20 13:05:00 2003
|
Ashwin, I have been hoping for something off the shelf, but considering the requirements, I assumed I would have to come up with my own design for the rf and modem. The ~500 units is max for one installation, with thousands of installations out there, so the development cost can be recovered and the price kept low. I only know some of the basics of networking, but am going to have to come up to speed rapidly. I saw a system from Berkley called Tiny OS which sounds perfect for my application. I just have to learn all about it yet and am open to any other suggestions. I was going to keep the average power down by using high power rf in a short burst and an 'energy pump'. Chad --- ashwiins <> wrote: > Chad, > I would appreciate it if you would keep me informed of which radio > you > selected. I agree with data rate issues as well. The particular > reason > why we selected this one was to ensure that we can provide solutions > in the 900Mhz/2.4Ghz/5.8Ghz ranges as well as ensure we can control > transmit power based on signal strentgh received. > > Another reason we went with this chip was that the greater bandwith > implies shorter burst times. So you're at peak output power for a > shorter period of time. And there's is less network congestion due to > > shorter burst times. Also helps in handling more traffic if need be, > like a second backbone. > > Are you planning to implement a TDMA model or a TDD model for > communications timing? > > Cost-wise I'm not really sure if you're going to get something very > cheap unless you opt for a rfPIC. Most radio modules out there on the > > market are in the region from $150-$300, course they have a bunch of > features like node id, CRC, and encryption. > > I'd be interested in learning more about how you achieve the 100m > range yet keep the power levels so low. > > Regards, > Ashwin > --- In , Chad Russel <chadrussel@y...> wrote: > > Ashwin, > > > > I did not notice before, but the data rate is much higher than I > need, > > therefore cost, and power will also be too high. :-( The range is > > correct about 100 meters, but the average power must be fairly low > > ,i.e. < 0.02 watts, and I need to network up to ~500 devices. I > will > > need to live with what ever speed can be done with these > parameters. > > > > Regards, > > Chad __________________________________ |
|
|
Stellaris® MCU Family: New Parts, New Package, New Price.
(You need to be a member of piclist -- send a blank email to piclist-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: Wireless Development with PICs - ashwiins - Aug 20 15:57:00 2003
|
Chad, What exactly is an energy pump? I'm curious to understand what exactly the benefits of using this method are. If you're looking to deploy a sensor network, then something like TinyOS might fit the bill although I don't think hardware is available as yet. If you're looking for a bit more of processing power, I'm not sure they will help. This was a similar problem we faces and had to build ourselves to solve. -A --- In , Chad Russel <chadrussel@y...> wrote: > Ashwin, > > I have been hoping for something off the shelf, but considering the > requirements, I assumed I would have to come up with my own design for > the rf and modem. The ~500 units is max for one installation, with > thousands of installations out there, so the development cost can be > recovered and the price kept low. > > I only know some of the basics of networking, but am going to have to > come up to speed rapidly. I saw a system from Berkley called Tiny OS > which sounds perfect for my application. I just have to learn all > about it yet and am open to any other suggestions. > > I was going to keep the average power down by using high power rf in a > short burst and an 'energy pump'. > > Chad |
|
|
Stellaris® MCU Family: New Parts, New Package, New Price.
(You need to be a member of piclist -- send a blank email to piclist-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: Re: Wireless Development with PICs - Chad Russel - Aug 20 16:15:00 2003
|
Energy pump is sort of one of my inventions. Like a charge pump with a gas tank. These units steal power from other devices and store the energy. Except for what may be required for the networking, the PIC has enough horsepower for my application. Chad --- ashwiins <> wrote: > Chad, > What exactly is an energy pump? I'm curious to understand what > exactly > the benefits of using this method are. > > If you're looking to deploy a sensor network, then something like > TinyOS might fit the bill although I don't think hardware is > available > as yet. > > If you're looking for a bit more of processing power, I'm not sure > they will help. This was a similar problem we faces and had to build > ourselves to solve. > > -A > > --- In , Chad Russel <chadrussel@y...> wrote: > > Ashwin, > > > > I have been hoping for something off the shelf, but considering the > > requirements, I assumed I would have to come up with my own design > for > > the rf and modem. The ~500 units is max for one installation, with > > thousands of installations out there, so the development cost can > be > > recovered and the price kept low. > > > > I only know some of the basics of networking, but am going to have > to > > come up to speed rapidly. I saw a system from Berkley called Tiny > OS > > which sounds perfect for my application. I just have to learn all > > about it yet and am open to any other suggestions. > > > > I was going to keep the average power down by using high power rf > in > a > > short burst and an 'energy pump'. > > > > Chad __________________________________ |
|
|
Stellaris® MCU Family: New Parts, New Package, New Price.
(You need to be a member of piclist -- send a blank email to piclist-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
RE: Re: Wireless Development with PICs - Charles Douvier - Aug 20 16:26:00 2003
|
Are you
talking about a system of devices that "borrow" emitted power from whatever happens to be
broadcasted in the area? Like a solar cell that charges it's battery from the sun
then run the <whatever> off the battery? You may want to make sure this isn't a
commercial application and if it is, make sure you can prove your not borrowing 60Hz power
floating around the area waves.. as stupid as it is, that's illegal to use emitted power
from power lines. I am not 100% up on that law, but I know it's a no-no to use radiated
power off the big lines..
Also,
have you don't any medium/long range radio modem work?
Charles
|
|
|
Stellaris® MCU Family: New Parts, New Package, New Price.
(You need to be a member of piclist -- send a blank email to piclist-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
RE: Re: Wireless Development with PICs - Chad Russel - Aug 20 18:42:00 2003
|
Now that is an interesting idea. :-D Where do "they" draw the line? A friend uses a circuit that amplifies and rectifies the 60 hz pick up from the human body to activate a device. Is that stealing? The power I am stealing is from control circuis, hopefully without the control circuits knowing it. :) Medium long range? Does teletype FSK count? :-p Actually I have been thinking about the HF possiblility, because line of sight may not always be possible. Chad --- Charles Douvier <> wrote: > Are you talking about a system of devices that "borrow" emitted power > from > whatever happens to be broadcasted in the area? Like a solar cell > that > charges it's battery from the sun then run the <whatever> off the > battery? > You may want to make sure this isn't a commercial application and if > it is, > make sure you can prove your not borrowing 60Hz power floating around > the > area waves.. as stupid as it is, that's illegal to use emitted power > from > power lines. I am not 100% up on that law, but I know it's a no-no to > use > radiated power off the big lines.. > > Also, have you don't any medium/long range radio modem work? > > Charles > -----Original Message----- > From: Chad Russel [mailto:] > Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 3:15 PM > To: > Subject: Re: [piclist] Re: Wireless Development with PICs > Energy pump is sort of one of my inventions. Like a charge pump > with a > gas tank. These units steal power from other devices and store the > energy. > ****SNIP**** __________________________________ |
|
|
Stellaris® MCU Family: New Parts, New Package, New Price.
(You need to be a member of piclist -- send a blank email to piclist-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: Wireless Development with PICs - ashwiins - Aug 21 0:35:00 2003
|
Chad, This circuit that your friend uses to amplify and rectify the 60hz pickup from the human body. How exactly does it work? Is this a similar concept to how some folks are trying to track people by the electronic signatures of the heart? I must admit that I am more of a networking and software guy than a hardware-capable bloke, but this is something I'd like to know more about. Regarding your problem with the pic design, you might want to look into the Microchip rfPIC range. I was talking to one of their engineers who said that the key is antenna design. They can do upto 50ft with very low power, but depending on the quality of the antenna design you can actually enhance range without requiring too much power. Hope this helps. This is probably the most effective solution I can think of. There are some companies out there who do what you might call mesh networking. But they are the type who offer a dev kit for $4000 and the radios only at around $300. -Ash --- In , Chad Russel <chadrussel@y...> wrote: > Now that is an interesting idea. :-D Where do "they" draw the line? A > friend uses a circuit that amplifies and rectifies the 60 hz pick up > from the human body to activate a device. Is that stealing? > > The power I am stealing is from control circuis, hopefully without the > control circuits knowing it. :) > > Medium long range? Does teletype FSK count? :-p Actually I have been > thinking about the HF possiblility, because line of sight may not > always be possible. > > Chad |
|
|
(You need to be a member of piclist -- send a blank email to piclist-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: Re: Wireless Development with PICs - Chad Russel - Aug 21 1:27:00 2003
|
Hi Ash, No one has yelled about taking this private yet, but I wonder if we should move this to PIC-adilly? The 60 hz was by contact i.e. touch switch. Very simple to do with a CMOS inverter as an amp. Due to popular demand,(customer changed priorities) the mesh networking is on the back burner now. My new problem is interfacing to an I2C or standard smart card and EEPROM memory with the same PIC? Any brilliant ideas out there? I have been fighting this one for a while also. Chad --- ashwiins <> wrote: > Chad, > This circuit that your friend uses to amplify and rectify the 60hz > pickup from the human body. How exactly does it work? Is this a > similar concept to how some folks are trying to track people by the > electronic signatures of the heart? > > I must admit that I am more of a networking and software guy than a > hardware-capable bloke, but this is something I'd like to know more > about. > > Regarding your problem with the pic design, you might want to look > into the Microchip rfPIC range. I was talking to one of their > engineers who said that the key is antenna design. They can do upto > 50ft with very low power, but depending on the quality of the antenna > design you can actually enhance range without requiring too much > power. Hope this helps. This is probably the most effective solution > I > can think of. > > There are some companies out there who do what you might call mesh > networking. But they are the type who offer a dev kit for $4000 and > the radios only at around $300. > > -Ash > --- In , Chad Russel <chadrussel@y...> wrote: > > Now that is an interesting idea. :-D Where do "they" draw the > line? A > > friend uses a circuit that amplifies and rectifies the 60 hz pick > up > > from the human body to activate a device. Is that stealing? > > > > The power I am stealing is from control circuis, hopefully without > the > > control circuits knowing it. :) > > > > Medium long range? Does teletype FSK count? :-p Actually I have > been > > thinking about the HF possiblility, because line of sight may not > > always be possible. > > > > Chad > __________________________________ |
(You need to be a member of piclist -- send a blank email to piclist-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )