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Discussion Groups | Piclist | newbie, I chose16F688, now what?
A discussion group for the PICMicro microcontroller. Also called the Microchip PIC, this list is dedicated to the use and abuse of this fine, simple, microcontroller. Close to topic posts are welcome, ie. general electronics.
newbie, I chose16F688, now what? - murrayatuptowngallery - Apr 17 11:16:59 2008
I didn't realize I was 'in' here. I was waiting for a subscribe
verification.
I have a project that needs microcontrolling. There are so many micros
out there now it's crazy.
I went thru the PIC site & chose 16F688 because it was small, had a
lot of memory and seemed to have all the features I anticipate needing.
Unfortunately I'm not seeing alot of content specific to it, and I
don't know enough to know how similar or different it is.
So, please, what is the simplest hardware interface for programming
(will the Byron Jeff Trivial method work? The LVP one I guess), and is
MPLAB enough to get started?
Thank you
Murray/Michigan
------------------------------------
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verification.
I have a project that needs microcontrolling. There are so many micros
out there now it's crazy.
I went thru the PIC site & chose 16F688 because it was small, had a
lot of memory and seemed to have all the features I anticipate needing.
Unfortunately I'm not seeing alot of content specific to it, and I
don't know enough to know how similar or different it is.
So, please, what is the simplest hardware interface for programming
(will the Byron Jeff Trivial method work? The LVP one I guess), and is
MPLAB enough to get started?
Thank you
Murray/Michigan
------------------------------------
to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and follow the instructions
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Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what? - Dennis Clark - Apr 17 12:09:56 2008
You will need specialized programming hardware to program a PIC. These
run from about $60 to whatever you want to spend. I like the Microchip
ICD2 since it also allows in circuit debugging. Olimex makes an ICD2
clone that is a little cheaper. Others make PIC programmers too. There
are a lot to choose from. I STRONGLY urge you to buy one and not bother
with the parallel port hacked home builds that use DOS command line
programmers. That way is fine for the truly cheap who understand
computers and hardware and don't value their time used in "fussing".
IMO,
DLC
> I didn't realize I was 'in' here. I was waiting for a subscribe
> verification.
>
> I have a project that needs microcontrolling. There are so many micros
> out there now it's crazy.
>
> I went thru the PIC site & chose 16F688 because it was small, had a
> lot of memory and seemed to have all the features I anticipate needing.
>
> Unfortunately I'm not seeing alot of content specific to it, and I
> don't know enough to know how similar or different it is.
>
> So, please, what is the simplest hardware interface for programming
> (will the Byron Jeff Trivial method work? The LVP one I guess), and is
> MPLAB enough to get started?
>
> Thank you
>
> Murray/Michigan
> ------------------------------------
>
> to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and follow the
> instructions
______________________________
controlSUITE™ software. Comprehensive. Intuitive. Optimized.
Real-world software for real-time control. Details Here!
(You need to be a member of piclist -- send a blank email to piclist-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
run from about $60 to whatever you want to spend. I like the Microchip
ICD2 since it also allows in circuit debugging. Olimex makes an ICD2
clone that is a little cheaper. Others make PIC programmers too. There
are a lot to choose from. I STRONGLY urge you to buy one and not bother
with the parallel port hacked home builds that use DOS command line
programmers. That way is fine for the truly cheap who understand
computers and hardware and don't value their time used in "fussing".
IMO,
DLC
> I didn't realize I was 'in' here. I was waiting for a subscribe
> verification.
>
> I have a project that needs microcontrolling. There are so many micros
> out there now it's crazy.
>
> I went thru the PIC site & chose 16F688 because it was small, had a
> lot of memory and seemed to have all the features I anticipate needing.
>
> Unfortunately I'm not seeing alot of content specific to it, and I
> don't know enough to know how similar or different it is.
>
> So, please, what is the simplest hardware interface for programming
> (will the Byron Jeff Trivial method work? The LVP one I guess), and is
> MPLAB enough to get started?
>
> Thank you
>
> Murray/Michigan
> ------------------------------------
>
> to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and follow the
> instructions
______________________________
controlSUITE™ software. Comprehensive. Intuitive. Optimized.
Real-world software for real-time control. Details Here!
(You need to be a member of piclist -- send a blank email to piclist-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what? - Murray Leshner - Apr 28 19:28:41 2008
Thank you (ICD2)
Murray
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Murray
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Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what? - ka1ifq - Apr 28 19:28:44 2008
On Thursday 17 April 2008 12:09:49 pm Dennis Clark wrote:
> You will need specialized programming hardware to program a PIC. These
> run from about $60 to whatever you want to spend. I like the Microchip
> ICD2 since it also allows in circuit debugging. Olimex makes an ICD2
> clone that is a little cheaper. Others make PIC programmers too. There
> are a lot to choose from. I STRONGLY urge you to buy one and not bother
> with the parallel port hacked home builds that use DOS command line
> programmers. That way is fine for the truly cheap who understand
> computers and hardware and don't value their time used in "fussing".
>
> IMO,
> DLC
I agree about the older pic programmers, the new stuff is rs232 or usb, and
wasting time getting the programmer going takes from the fun of actual
programming and debugging :>).
>
> > I didn't realize I was 'in' here. I was waiting for a subscribe
> > verification.
> >
> > I have a project that needs microcontrolling. There are so many micros
> > out there now it's crazy.
> >
> > I went thru the PIC site & chose 16F688 because it was small, had a
> > lot of memory and seemed to have all the features I anticipate needing.
> >
> > Unfortunately I'm not seeing alot of content specific to it, and I
> > don't know enough to know how similar or different it is.
> >
> > So, please, what is the simplest hardware interface for programming
> > (will the Byron Jeff Trivial method work? The LVP one I guess), and is
> > MPLAB enough to get started?
> > Thank you
> > Murray/Michigan
> > ------------------------------------
I am new to pics myself, been doing reading also. I do have an old par port
programmer that can use windows software, a simmstick type.
Here is a site that sells pic related items, programmers and experimenter
boards, I think I will buy the JUNEBUG myself.
http://www.blueroomelectronics.com/
There is also Dontronics.
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/
Here is a message board with a bunch of pic related stuff also.
http://www.electro-tech-online.com/
If you are not on a tight budget you could probably get the Microchip stuff...
Mike
------------------------------------
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> You will need specialized programming hardware to program a PIC. These
> run from about $60 to whatever you want to spend. I like the Microchip
> ICD2 since it also allows in circuit debugging. Olimex makes an ICD2
> clone that is a little cheaper. Others make PIC programmers too. There
> are a lot to choose from. I STRONGLY urge you to buy one and not bother
> with the parallel port hacked home builds that use DOS command line
> programmers. That way is fine for the truly cheap who understand
> computers and hardware and don't value their time used in "fussing".
>
> IMO,
> DLC
I agree about the older pic programmers, the new stuff is rs232 or usb, and
wasting time getting the programmer going takes from the fun of actual
programming and debugging :>).
>
> > I didn't realize I was 'in' here. I was waiting for a subscribe
> > verification.
> >
> > I have a project that needs microcontrolling. There are so many micros
> > out there now it's crazy.
> >
> > I went thru the PIC site & chose 16F688 because it was small, had a
> > lot of memory and seemed to have all the features I anticipate needing.
> >
> > Unfortunately I'm not seeing alot of content specific to it, and I
> > don't know enough to know how similar or different it is.
> >
> > So, please, what is the simplest hardware interface for programming
> > (will the Byron Jeff Trivial method work? The LVP one I guess), and is
> > MPLAB enough to get started?
> > Thank you
> > Murray/Michigan
> > ------------------------------------
I am new to pics myself, been doing reading also. I do have an old par port
programmer that can use windows software, a simmstick type.
Here is a site that sells pic related items, programmers and experimenter
boards, I think I will buy the JUNEBUG myself.
http://www.blueroomelectronics.com/
There is also Dontronics.
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/
Here is a message board with a bunch of pic related stuff also.
http://www.electro-tech-online.com/
If you are not on a tight budget you could probably get the Microchip stuff...
Mike
------------------------------------
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Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what? - Bob Hyland - Apr 29 9:35:08 2008
--- "Dennis Clark" wrote:
>
> You will need specialized programming hardware to program a PIC.
> These run from about $60 to whatever you want to spend. I like the
> Microchip ICD2 since it also allows in circuit debugging. Olimex
> makes an ICD2 clone that is a little cheaper. Others make PIC
> programmers too. There are a lot to choose from. I STRONGLY urge
> you to buy one and not bother with the parallel port hacked home
> builds that use DOS command line programmers.
I could not agree more. Over the years, I have purchased several
inexpensive PIC programmers from various sources -- thinking that I
was saving money. Well, each PIC programmer needs to be updated to
handle each new PIC, and most of the programmers are no longer
supported (or the companies have gone out of business, etc.). So, I
was left to go purchase yet another programmer.
Needless to say, most of those "cheap" programmers are now in my
scrap bin waiting to have their parts removed. They are essentially
useless now as programmers. Also, consider that something might go
wrong and you might need support in a specific situation, etc.
Bottom line: I would break down and buy a programmer directly from
MicroChip. The ICD2 is a very nice unit that also allows In Circuit
Debugging (thus, the name ICD). However, they have another unit that
is much less expensive and still allows in circuit debugging -- the
PICKit2:
http://www.microchip.com/PICKit2
If you only order the PICKit2, it only costs $34.99:
http://www.microchipdirect.com/productsearch.aspx?Keywords=DV164120
If you buy the Starter Kit or the "Debug Express", it costs $49.99.
For that extra $15, you get a demo board, an extra CD (you can
download all the content for free) and a USB cable.
AND, you get the guarantee that MicroChip will continue to support
and update the uinit so that it will keep working years into the
future.
I bought this one a couple years ago, and have never regretted it.
Best $35 I ever spent...
Bob H.
*snip*
------------------------------------
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>
> You will need specialized programming hardware to program a PIC.
> These run from about $60 to whatever you want to spend. I like the
> Microchip ICD2 since it also allows in circuit debugging. Olimex
> makes an ICD2 clone that is a little cheaper. Others make PIC
> programmers too. There are a lot to choose from. I STRONGLY urge
> you to buy one and not bother with the parallel port hacked home
> builds that use DOS command line programmers.
I could not agree more. Over the years, I have purchased several
inexpensive PIC programmers from various sources -- thinking that I
was saving money. Well, each PIC programmer needs to be updated to
handle each new PIC, and most of the programmers are no longer
supported (or the companies have gone out of business, etc.). So, I
was left to go purchase yet another programmer.
Needless to say, most of those "cheap" programmers are now in my
scrap bin waiting to have their parts removed. They are essentially
useless now as programmers. Also, consider that something might go
wrong and you might need support in a specific situation, etc.
Bottom line: I would break down and buy a programmer directly from
MicroChip. The ICD2 is a very nice unit that also allows In Circuit
Debugging (thus, the name ICD). However, they have another unit that
is much less expensive and still allows in circuit debugging -- the
PICKit2:
http://www.microchip.com/PICKit2
If you only order the PICKit2, it only costs $34.99:
http://www.microchipdirect.com/productsearch.aspx?Keywords=DV164120
If you buy the Starter Kit or the "Debug Express", it costs $49.99.
For that extra $15, you get a demo board, an extra CD (you can
download all the content for free) and a USB cable.
AND, you get the guarantee that MicroChip will continue to support
and update the uinit so that it will keep working years into the
future.
I bought this one a couple years ago, and have never regretted it.
Best $35 I ever spent...
Bob H.
*snip*
------------------------------------
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Re: Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what? - Jcullins - Apr 29 9:49:18 2008
I use the MElabs USB programmer. Works very well on all of the pics I have
tried it on.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Hyland"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 8:35 AM
Subject: [piclist] Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what?
> --- "Dennis Clark" wrote:
>>
>> You will need specialized programming hardware to program a PIC.
>> These run from about $60 to whatever you want to spend. I like the
>> Microchip ICD2 since it also allows in circuit debugging. Olimex
>> makes an ICD2 clone that is a little cheaper. Others make PIC
>> programmers too. There are a lot to choose from. I STRONGLY urge
>> you to buy one and not bother with the parallel port hacked home
>> builds that use DOS command line programmers.
>
> I could not agree more. Over the years, I have purchased several
> inexpensive PIC programmers from various sources -- thinking that I
> was saving money. Well, each PIC programmer needs to be updated to
> handle each new PIC, and most of the programmers are no longer
> supported (or the companies have gone out of business, etc.). So, I
> was left to go purchase yet another programmer.
>
> Needless to say, most of those "cheap" programmers are now in my
> scrap bin waiting to have their parts removed. They are essentially
> useless now as programmers. Also, consider that something might go
> wrong and you might need support in a specific situation, etc.
>
> Bottom line: I would break down and buy a programmer directly from
> MicroChip. The ICD2 is a very nice unit that also allows In Circuit
> Debugging (thus, the name ICD). However, they have another unit that
> is much less expensive and still allows in circuit debugging -- the
> PICKit2:
>
> http://www.microchip.com/PICKit2
>
> If you only order the PICKit2, it only costs $34.99:
>
> http://www.microchipdirect.com/productsearch.aspx?Keywords=DV164120
>
> If you buy the Starter Kit or the "Debug Express", it costs $49.99.
> For that extra $15, you get a demo board, an extra CD (you can
> download all the content for free) and a USB cable.
>
> AND, you get the guarantee that MicroChip will continue to support
> and update the uinit so that it will keep working years into the
> future.
>
> I bought this one a couple years ago, and have never regretted it.
> Best $35 I ever spent...
>
> Bob H.
>
> *snip*
> ------------------------------------
>
> to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and follow the
> instructions
(You need to be a member of piclist -- send a blank email to piclist-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
tried it on.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Hyland"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 8:35 AM
Subject: [piclist] Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what?
> --- "Dennis Clark"
>>
>> You will need specialized programming hardware to program a PIC.
>> These run from about $60 to whatever you want to spend. I like the
>> Microchip ICD2 since it also allows in circuit debugging. Olimex
>> makes an ICD2 clone that is a little cheaper. Others make PIC
>> programmers too. There are a lot to choose from. I STRONGLY urge
>> you to buy one and not bother with the parallel port hacked home
>> builds that use DOS command line programmers.
>
> I could not agree more. Over the years, I have purchased several
> inexpensive PIC programmers from various sources -- thinking that I
> was saving money. Well, each PIC programmer needs to be updated to
> handle each new PIC, and most of the programmers are no longer
> supported (or the companies have gone out of business, etc.). So, I
> was left to go purchase yet another programmer.
>
> Needless to say, most of those "cheap" programmers are now in my
> scrap bin waiting to have their parts removed. They are essentially
> useless now as programmers. Also, consider that something might go
> wrong and you might need support in a specific situation, etc.
>
> Bottom line: I would break down and buy a programmer directly from
> MicroChip. The ICD2 is a very nice unit that also allows In Circuit
> Debugging (thus, the name ICD). However, they have another unit that
> is much less expensive and still allows in circuit debugging -- the
> PICKit2:
>
> http://www.microchip.com/PICKit2
>
> If you only order the PICKit2, it only costs $34.99:
>
> http://www.microchipdirect.com/productsearch.aspx?Keywords=DV164120
>
> If you buy the Starter Kit or the "Debug Express", it costs $49.99.
> For that extra $15, you get a demo board, an extra CD (you can
> download all the content for free) and a USB cable.
>
> AND, you get the guarantee that MicroChip will continue to support
> and update the uinit so that it will keep working years into the
> future.
>
> I bought this one a couple years ago, and have never regretted it.
> Best $35 I ever spent...
>
> Bob H.
>
> *snip*
> ------------------------------------
>
> to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and follow the
> instructions
(You need to be a member of piclist -- send a blank email to piclist-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what? - "John J. McDonough, WB8RCR" - Apr 29 9:59:56 2008
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Hyland"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 9:35 AM
Subject: [piclist] Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what?
> Bottom line: I would break down and buy a programmer directly from
> MicroChip. The ICD2 is a very nice unit that also allows In Circuit
> Debugging (thus, the name ICD). However, they have another unit that
> is much less expensive and still allows in circuit debugging -- the
> PICKit2:
Keep in mind, the PICkit 2 supports a limited (but growing) number of PICs,
while the ICD 2 supports virtually everything. They are basically the same
thing, so the selection of PICs to support is a marketing decision by
Microchip.
PICs are all largely programmed the same, so the very cheap "Tait" style
programmers can work on pretty much every PIC. However, these programmers
require either a parallel port or a real serial port. They will not work
with USB to serial converters, so this can be a problem with many newer
computers. As has been mentioned, finding software to work with them can be
frustrating. However, there are several decent programs, my favorite is
WinPIC, which support most programmers and most PICs. There is nothing
wrong with this choice if you are very price sensitive and enjoy tinkering.
Chances are you have all the parts you need in the junkbox.
But if you want to get to work without hassle, the ICD2 is the clear choice.
Note that the 16F688 is not fully supported by the PICkit 2 (at least as of
MPLAB 7.60), so that may not be as clean a choice as you might like.
Microchip has tended to support more parts with the PICkit 2 over time, but
it really isn't clear that they intend to eventually support everything with
that programmer. Since they come out with new PICs every couple of weeks,
and every so often one of those is really cool, you might be a little
cautious about not having the capability of dealing with everything. Once
you learn the 688, you will find that for the next project, some other PIC
is better.
The ICD2 clones generally use software directly from MPLAB, so except for
support, they are essentially the same as an ICD2. However, Microchip's
support for the ICD2 is incredible, hence the high price.
72/73 de WB8RCR http://www.qsl.net/wb8rcr
didileydadidah QRP-L #1446 Code Warriors #35
------------------------------------
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Re: Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what? - Dennis Clark - Apr 29 11:54:09 2008
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Hyland"
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 9:35 AM
> Subject: [piclist] Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what?
>> Bottom line: I would break down and buy a programmer directly from
>> MicroChip. The ICD2 is a very nice unit that also allows In Circuit
>> Debugging (thus, the name ICD). However, they have another unit that
>> is much less expensive and still allows in circuit debugging -- the
>> PICKit2:
>
> Keep in mind, the PICkit 2 supports a limited (but growing) number of
> PICs,
> while the ICD 2 supports virtually everything. They are basically the
> same
> thing, so the selection of PICs to support is a marketing decision by
> Microchip.
>
> PICs are all largely programmed the same, so the very cheap "Tait" style
> programmers can work on pretty much every PIC. However, these programmers
> require either a parallel port or a real serial port. They will not work
> with USB to serial converters, so this can be a problem with many newer
> computers. As has been mentioned, finding software to work with them can
> be
> frustrating. However, there are several decent programs, my favorite is
> WinPIC, which support most programmers and most PICs. There is nothing
> wrong with this choice if you are very price sensitive and enjoy
> tinkering.
> Chances are you have all the parts you need in the junkbox.
>
> But if you want to get to work without hassle, the ICD2 is the clear
> choice.
> Note that the 16F688 is not fully supported by the PICkit 2 (at least as
> of
> MPLAB 7.60), so that may not be as clean a choice as you might like.
> Microchip has tended to support more parts with the PICkit 2 over time,
> but
> it really isn't clear that they intend to eventually support everything
> with
> that programmer. Since they come out with new PICs every couple of weeks,
> and every so often one of those is really cool, you might be a little
> cautious about not having the capability of dealing with everything. Once
> you learn the 688, you will find that for the next project, some other PIC
> is better.
>
> The ICD2 clones generally use software directly from MPLAB, so except for
> support, they are essentially the same as an ICD2. However, Microchip's
> support for the ICD2 is incredible, hence the high price.
Indeed. If you toast your ICD 2 for ANY reason you can replace it for
the cost of shipping. You can't beat that with a stick.
DLC
> 72/73 de WB8RCR http://www.qsl.net/wb8rcr
> didileydadidah QRP-L #1446 Code Warriors #35
--
Dennis Clark
TTT Enterprises
------------------------------------
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Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what? - Bob Hyland - Apr 30 12:02:25 2008
--- "John J. McDonough, WB8RCR"" wrote:
*snip*
> > The ICD2 clones generally use software directly from MPLAB, so
> > except for support, they are essentially the same as an ICD2.
I suppose my main point earlier should really read: I would ONLY buy a
programmer from a larger, well established source. There are a number
of reputable sources (, , etc.) However, I do not believe the reputable
sources rely on Microchip's programming and firmware updates to make
their programmers work. The reputable ones make their own programmers
and update their own firmware.
The issue with the ICD2 clones is that, since the manufacturers do not
create the software, firmware upgrades, etc., you have to *cross your
fingers* and hope the next upgrade also works. Like I said, I have been
burned.
> > However, Microchip's support for the ICD2 is incredible, hence the
> > high price.
My other point is that programmers directly from uChip do not have to
be expensive. At least by my standards, $34.99 is NOT expensive.
Especially since it includes the guarenteed support. And, the for all
practical purposes (especially for the beginner) the PICKit2 is cheaper
and easier.
--- "Dennis Clark" wrote:
> Indeed. If you toast your ICD 2 for ANY reason you can replace it for
> the cost of shipping. You can't beat that with a stick.
Indeed!
Bob H.
------------------------------------
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*snip*
> > The ICD2 clones generally use software directly from MPLAB, so
> > except for support, they are essentially the same as an ICD2.
I suppose my main point earlier should really read: I would ONLY buy a
programmer from a larger, well established source. There are a number
of reputable sources (, , etc.) However, I do not believe the reputable
sources rely on Microchip's programming and firmware updates to make
their programmers work. The reputable ones make their own programmers
and update their own firmware.
The issue with the ICD2 clones is that, since the manufacturers do not
create the software, firmware upgrades, etc., you have to *cross your
fingers* and hope the next upgrade also works. Like I said, I have been
burned.
> > However, Microchip's support for the ICD2 is incredible, hence the
> > high price.
My other point is that programmers directly from uChip do not have to
be expensive. At least by my standards, $34.99 is NOT expensive.
Especially since it includes the guarenteed support. And, the for all
practical purposes (especially for the beginner) the PICKit2 is cheaper
and easier.
--- "Dennis Clark" wrote:
> Indeed. If you toast your ICD 2 for ANY reason you can replace it for
> the cost of shipping. You can't beat that with a stick.
Indeed!
Bob H.
------------------------------------
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Re: Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what? - "John J. McDonough, WB8RCR" - Apr 30 13:30:47 2008
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Hyland"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 12:02 PM
Subject: [piclist] Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what?
> My other point is that programmers directly from uChip do not have to
> be expensive. At least by my standards, $34.99 is NOT expensive.
> Especially since it includes the guarenteed support. And, the for all
> practical purposes (especially for the beginner) the PICKit2 is cheaper
> and easier.
OP indicated his interest was the PIC16F688. When I look at that part on
MPLAB 7.60, PICkit 2 support has a yellow dot. Normally this means you need
to buy an adapter, that often isn't cheap. It does seem a little odd since
the ICD 2 has a green dot, so perhaps the yellow dot in this case means
something else, and perhaps there is full support in MPLAB 8.
There is always a risk that at some point, your programmer, no matter who it
is from will become a bookend. If you bought an ICD 1 you are pretty much
in that shape. Microchip has decided, for whatever reason, that the PICkit
2 doesn't support all the PICs, and the ICD 2 does. If that is the case next
year, or next week, who knows?
BUT, if you get a programmer that relies on third party software, then
support for a new PIC (or another PIC) happens when and if that vendor
decides to produce that support. If your programmer relies on ICD 2
software, then the support will be available when Microchip releases the
part. If you build a Tait-style programmer, there are dozens of people
writing software for it, so there is little risk of the company
disappearing. The flip side is that finding the right software as your
needs change can be very frustrating.
72/73 de WB8RCR http://www.qsl.net/wb8rcr
didileydadidah QRP-L #1446 Code Warriors #35
------------------------------------
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From: "Bob Hyland"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 12:02 PM
Subject: [piclist] Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what?
> My other point is that programmers directly from uChip do not have to
> be expensive. At least by my standards, $34.99 is NOT expensive.
> Especially since it includes the guarenteed support. And, the for all
> practical purposes (especially for the beginner) the PICKit2 is cheaper
> and easier.
OP indicated his interest was the PIC16F688. When I look at that part on
MPLAB 7.60, PICkit 2 support has a yellow dot. Normally this means you need
to buy an adapter, that often isn't cheap. It does seem a little odd since
the ICD 2 has a green dot, so perhaps the yellow dot in this case means
something else, and perhaps there is full support in MPLAB 8.
There is always a risk that at some point, your programmer, no matter who it
is from will become a bookend. If you bought an ICD 1 you are pretty much
in that shape. Microchip has decided, for whatever reason, that the PICkit
2 doesn't support all the PICs, and the ICD 2 does. If that is the case next
year, or next week, who knows?
BUT, if you get a programmer that relies on third party software, then
support for a new PIC (or another PIC) happens when and if that vendor
decides to produce that support. If your programmer relies on ICD 2
software, then the support will be available when Microchip releases the
part. If you build a Tait-style programmer, there are dozens of people
writing software for it, so there is little risk of the company
disappearing. The flip side is that finding the right software as your
needs change can be very frustrating.
72/73 de WB8RCR http://www.qsl.net/wb8rcr
didileydadidah QRP-L #1446 Code Warriors #35
------------------------------------
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Real-world software for real-time control. Details Here!
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Re: Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what? - Leon Heller - Apr 30 14:37:08 2008
----- Original Message -----
From: "John J. McDonough, WB8RCR"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: [piclist] Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Hyland"
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 12:02 PM
> Subject: [piclist] Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what?
>> My other point is that programmers directly from uChip do not have to
>> be expensive. At least by my standards, $34.99 is NOT expensive.
>> Especially since it includes the guarenteed support. And, the for all
>> practical purposes (especially for the beginner) the PICKit2 is cheaper
>> and easier.
>
> OP indicated his interest was the PIC16F688. When I look at that part on
> MPLAB 7.60, PICkit 2 support has a yellow dot. Normally this means you
> need
> to buy an adapter, that often isn't cheap. It does seem a little odd
> since
> the ICD 2 has a green dot, so perhaps the yellow dot in this case means
> something else, and perhaps there is full support in MPLAB 8.
The yellow dot actually indicates that debug/programmer support is in beta
stage, and hasn't been fully tested.
Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND transceiver
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
l...@btinternet.com
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller
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From: "John J. McDonough, WB8RCR"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: [piclist] Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Hyland"
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 12:02 PM
> Subject: [piclist] Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what?
>> My other point is that programmers directly from uChip do not have to
>> be expensive. At least by my standards, $34.99 is NOT expensive.
>> Especially since it includes the guarenteed support. And, the for all
>> practical purposes (especially for the beginner) the PICKit2 is cheaper
>> and easier.
>
> OP indicated his interest was the PIC16F688. When I look at that part on
> MPLAB 7.60, PICkit 2 support has a yellow dot. Normally this means you
> need
> to buy an adapter, that often isn't cheap. It does seem a little odd
> since
> the ICD 2 has a green dot, so perhaps the yellow dot in this case means
> something else, and perhaps there is full support in MPLAB 8.
The yellow dot actually indicates that debug/programmer support is in beta
stage, and hasn't been fully tested.
Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND transceiver
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
l...@btinternet.com
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller
------------------------------------
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Real-world software for real-time control. Details Here!
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Re: Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what? - Lez - Apr 30 15:51:36 2008
2008/4/30 Bob Hyland :
>
> My other point is that programmers directly from uChip do not have to
> be expensive. At least by my standards, $34.99 is NOT expensive.
> Especially since it includes the guarenteed support. And, the for all
is that for the icd2?
if so in the uk we get raw deal at 80ukp / 117ukp (*2=$ approx)
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>
> My other point is that programmers directly from uChip do not have to
> be expensive. At least by my standards, $34.99 is NOT expensive.
> Especially since it includes the guarenteed support. And, the for all
is that for the icd2?
if so in the uk we get raw deal at 80ukp / 117ukp (*2=$ approx)
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Re: Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what? - dlc - Apr 30 23:57:33 2008
I think that he was talking about the PICkit2 - Much cheaper than the
ICD2, but much less capable as well.
DLC
Lez wrote:
> 2008/4/30 Bob Hyland:
>> My other point is that programmers directly from uChip do not have to
>> be expensive. At least by my standards, $34.99 is NOT expensive.
>> Especially since it includes the guarenteed support. And, the for all
> is that for the icd2?
>
> if so in the uk we get raw deal at 80ukp / 117ukp (*2=$ approx)
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and follow the instructions
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ICD2, but much less capable as well.
DLC
Lez wrote:
> 2008/4/30 Bob Hyland
>> My other point is that programmers directly from uChip do not have to
>> be expensive. At least by my standards, $34.99 is NOT expensive.
>> Especially since it includes the guarenteed support. And, the for all
> is that for the icd2?
>
> if so in the uk we get raw deal at 80ukp / 117ukp (*2=$ approx)
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and follow the instructions
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Re: Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what? - "John J. McDonough, WB8RCR" - May 1 7:43:48 2008
Yes the US ICD2 price is around 150, so maybe not so different than the UK
price.
However, it is worth mentioning that the PICkit2 is not all that much
different than the ICD2 in hardware capability ... the "much less" part is
really a product positioning decision on Microchip's part. It is also worth
noting that Microchip has indicated they will be moving toward the PICkit 2
physical interface to the target board (SIP header) and away from the ICD2
interface (RJ12). Further, Microchip has been increasing the number of
parts supported by the PICkit 2. So it *might* be that they see the PICkit
2 as eventually becoming the ICD2 replacement.
The only hardware capability differences are that the ICD 2 is serial or
USB, the PICkit 2 is USB only, and the ICD 2 can power the target circuit
for 8 bit parts, while the PICkit 2 cannot. Since serial ports are going
the way of the dodo, and Microchip's emphasis these days is more toward the
16/32 bit parts, these are almost non-differences. Microchip also has shown
an ICD2 LE, which is an ICD2, USB only, no power (i.e. almost a PICkit 2),
same package as the PICkit 2 (except a different color), but software
compatible with the ICD2. The LE has only been available so far as part of
packages distributed at seminars.
I actually use an LE for almost everything; my hockey puck is sitting here
collecting dust.
The PICkit 2 is basically an 18F2550 in a little plastic package. The LE is
an 18F4550 plus a 16F877 in the same package but a different color. The old
hockey puck ICD 2 also uses the 877 to do the work, but the USB interface is
the old Cypress chipset. I wondered about the 4550 choice for the LE since
the 2550 and 4550 are essentially the same part, and the LE doesn't use
anywhere near all the pins of the 2550 let alone the 4550. I can only
conclude that there must have been some manufacturing advantage to placing
two 40 pin parts rather than a 40 pin and a 28 pin, and if you're Microchip,
the two cost the same anyway.
72/73 de WB8RCR http://www.qsl.net/wb8rcr
didileydadidah QRP-L #1446 Code Warriors #35
----- Original Message -----
From: "dlc"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: [piclist] Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what?
>I think that he was talking about the PICkit2 - Much cheaper than the
> ICD2, but much less capable as well.
>
> DLC
>
> Lez wrote:
>> 2008/4/30 Bob Hyland:
>>>
>>>
>>> My other point is that programmers directly from uChip do not have to
>>> be expensive. At least by my standards, $34.99 is NOT expensive.
>>> Especially since it includes the guarenteed support. And, the for all
>> is that for the icd2?
>>
>> if so in the uk we get raw deal at 80ukp / 117ukp (*2=$ approx)
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and follow the
>> instructions
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price.
However, it is worth mentioning that the PICkit2 is not all that much
different than the ICD2 in hardware capability ... the "much less" part is
really a product positioning decision on Microchip's part. It is also worth
noting that Microchip has indicated they will be moving toward the PICkit 2
physical interface to the target board (SIP header) and away from the ICD2
interface (RJ12). Further, Microchip has been increasing the number of
parts supported by the PICkit 2. So it *might* be that they see the PICkit
2 as eventually becoming the ICD2 replacement.
The only hardware capability differences are that the ICD 2 is serial or
USB, the PICkit 2 is USB only, and the ICD 2 can power the target circuit
for 8 bit parts, while the PICkit 2 cannot. Since serial ports are going
the way of the dodo, and Microchip's emphasis these days is more toward the
16/32 bit parts, these are almost non-differences. Microchip also has shown
an ICD2 LE, which is an ICD2, USB only, no power (i.e. almost a PICkit 2),
same package as the PICkit 2 (except a different color), but software
compatible with the ICD2. The LE has only been available so far as part of
packages distributed at seminars.
I actually use an LE for almost everything; my hockey puck is sitting here
collecting dust.
The PICkit 2 is basically an 18F2550 in a little plastic package. The LE is
an 18F4550 plus a 16F877 in the same package but a different color. The old
hockey puck ICD 2 also uses the 877 to do the work, but the USB interface is
the old Cypress chipset. I wondered about the 4550 choice for the LE since
the 2550 and 4550 are essentially the same part, and the LE doesn't use
anywhere near all the pins of the 2550 let alone the 4550. I can only
conclude that there must have been some manufacturing advantage to placing
two 40 pin parts rather than a 40 pin and a 28 pin, and if you're Microchip,
the two cost the same anyway.
72/73 de WB8RCR http://www.qsl.net/wb8rcr
didileydadidah QRP-L #1446 Code Warriors #35
----- Original Message -----
From: "dlc"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: [piclist] Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what?
>I think that he was talking about the PICkit2 - Much cheaper than the
> ICD2, but much less capable as well.
>
> DLC
>
> Lez wrote:
>> 2008/4/30 Bob Hyland
>>>
>>>
>>> My other point is that programmers directly from uChip do not have to
>>> be expensive. At least by my standards, $34.99 is NOT expensive.
>>> Especially since it includes the guarenteed support. And, the for all
>> is that for the icd2?
>>
>> if so in the uk we get raw deal at 80ukp / 117ukp (*2=$ approx)
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and follow the
>> instructions
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Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what? - Bob Hyland - May 1 10:21:41 2008
--- dlc wrote:
> I think that he was talking about the PICkit2 - Much cheaper than
> the ICD2, but much less capable as well.
Yes, that is for the PICKit2. Much cheaper, but *NOT* much less capable.
Actually, the PicKit2 was developed later, and incorporates many things
learned in developing the older style ICD2. The ICD2 is great, do not
get me wrong. However, with the PICKit2, you do not need a different
header, etc. per chip. You do need a 4 pin header on the board to be
programmed, though -- assuming that you programming in circuit. If you
are just programming the chip, you need a simple board (many cheap ones
available) that simply has the 5 pin header and sends output to 2
different sized ZIF sockets (40 pin and 24 pin).
Bob H.
*snip*
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> I think that he was talking about the PICkit2 - Much cheaper than
> the ICD2, but much less capable as well.
Yes, that is for the PICKit2. Much cheaper, but *NOT* much less capable.
Actually, the PicKit2 was developed later, and incorporates many things
learned in developing the older style ICD2. The ICD2 is great, do not
get me wrong. However, with the PICKit2, you do not need a different
header, etc. per chip. You do need a 4 pin header on the board to be
programmed, though -- assuming that you programming in circuit. If you
are just programming the chip, you need a simple board (many cheap ones
available) that simply has the 5 pin header and sends output to 2
different sized ZIF sockets (40 pin and 24 pin).
Bob H.
*snip*
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Re: Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what? - Lez - May 2 8:58:20 2008
2008/5/1 Bob Hyland :
> --- dlc wrote:
> > I think that he was talking about the PICkit2 - Much cheaper than
> > the ICD2, but much less capable as well.
Thanks everyone for clearing that up, so, I may be getting another
programmer, I currently use a willem but i know its going to be
limited in lots of ways, but has many other uses for older kit with
eeproms etc.
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> --- dlc wrote:
> > I think that he was talking about the PICkit2 - Much cheaper than
> > the ICD2, but much less capable as well.
Thanks everyone for clearing that up, so, I may be getting another
programmer, I currently use a willem but i know its going to be
limited in lots of ways, but has many other uses for older kit with
eeproms etc.
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Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what? - Bob Hyland - May 2 9:55:28 2008
--- "John J. McDonough, WB8RCR" wrote:
Good analysis. I agree with all these comments, except...
*snip*
> USB, the PICkit 2 is USB only, and the ICD 2 can power the target
> circuit for 8 bit parts, while the PICkit 2 cannot.
NOTE: The PICKit2 can power the target circuit, albeit with a limited
current of around 250 mA (I have to look for hte exact #). When I am
in the development cycle, I use mine to power a circuit. When doing
full ICP/ICD I use the circuit's power supply.
*snip*
> Microchip's emphasis these days is more toward the 16/32 bit parts,
> these are almost non-differences.
Do not read this as suggesting that MicroChip (or anyone is phasing
out the 8 bit chips. Rumors about the 8 bit chip's demise have been
floating around for decades (seriously... decades). 8-bit chips make
up ~70% of MicroChip's revenue stream. Also, they keep developing
better, faster 8-bit chips. So, expect that you will still be using
them 10 years from now.
*snip*
> anywhere near all the pins of the 2550 let alone the 4550. I can
> only conclude that there must have been some manufacturing
> advantage to placing two 40 pin parts rather than a 40 pin and a 28
> pin, and if you're Microchip, the two cost the same anyway.
Even for MicroChip, the 2 parts have a different cost. Especially
since each circuit board has to be made with extra via's and pads and
traces, etc. No, I suspect they did this as part of a future
enhancement (as of yet untapped features). Or, as happened some time
ago with another of their products, they may have ended up with a
BUNCH of extra 4550's (or at least 4550 manufacturing capacity) and
it turned out to be cheaper overall.
But, I like to think positively. It is part of a future product
enhancement! (That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it!)
Bob H.
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Good analysis. I agree with all these comments, except...
*snip*
> USB, the PICkit 2 is USB only, and the ICD 2 can power the target
> circuit for 8 bit parts, while the PICkit 2 cannot.
NOTE: The PICKit2 can power the target circuit, albeit with a limited
current of around 250 mA (I have to look for hte exact #). When I am
in the development cycle, I use mine to power a circuit. When doing
full ICP/ICD I use the circuit's power supply.
*snip*
> Microchip's emphasis these days is more toward the 16/32 bit parts,
> these are almost non-differences.
Do not read this as suggesting that MicroChip (or anyone is phasing
out the 8 bit chips. Rumors about the 8 bit chip's demise have been
floating around for decades (seriously... decades). 8-bit chips make
up ~70% of MicroChip's revenue stream. Also, they keep developing
better, faster 8-bit chips. So, expect that you will still be using
them 10 years from now.
*snip*
> anywhere near all the pins of the 2550 let alone the 4550. I can
> only conclude that there must have been some manufacturing
> advantage to placing two 40 pin parts rather than a 40 pin and a 28
> pin, and if you're Microchip, the two cost the same anyway.
Even for MicroChip, the 2 parts have a different cost. Especially
since each circuit board has to be made with extra via's and pads and
traces, etc. No, I suspect they did this as part of a future
enhancement (as of yet untapped features). Or, as happened some time
ago with another of their products, they may have ended up with a
BUNCH of extra 4550's (or at least 4550 manufacturing capacity) and
it turned out to be cheaper overall.
But, I like to think positively. It is part of a future product
enhancement! (That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it!)
Bob H.
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Re: Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what? - "John J. McDonough, WB8RCR" - May 2 11:14:20 2008
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Hyland"
To:
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 9:55 AM
Subject: [piclist] Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what?
> NOTE: The PICKit2 can power the target circuit, albeit with a limited
> current of around 250 mA (I have to look for hte exact #). When I am
> in the development cycle, I use mine to power a circuit. When doing
> full ICP/ICD I use the circuit's power supply.
Good deal, I wasn't aware of this. The ICD2 LE is NOT able to power the
target circuit, and MPLAB won't let you try to power a 16 bit part with the
ICD 2 (not LE).
> Do not read this as suggesting that MicroChip (or anyone is phasing
> out the 8 bit chips. Rumors about the 8 bit chip's demise have been
> floating around for decades (seriously... decades). 8-bit chips make
> up ~70% of MicroChip's revenue stream. Also, they keep developing
> better, faster 8-bit chips. So, expect that you will still be using
> them 10 years from now.
Absolutely agree. However, the pricing on the 16 bit parts is becoming more
and more attractive.
> Even for MicroChip, the 2 parts have a different cost. Especially
> since each circuit board has to be made with extra via's and pads and
> traces, etc. No, I suspect they did this as part of a future
> enhancement (as of yet untapped features). Or, as happened some time
> ago with another of their products, they may have ended up with a
> BUNCH of extra 4550's (or at least 4550 manufacturing capacity) and
> it turned out to be cheaper overall.
Well, the LE has no extra traces and vias etc. The circuit needs 4 pins
from a 28 pin part in the PICkit, from a 40 pin part in the LE. There are,
of course, 40 pads, but nothing else. Seems very odd.
*BUT*, for those of you that haven't caught on, the 2550/4550 is an
extremely cheap and easy way to get usb.
> But, I like to think positively. It is part of a future product
> enhancement! (That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it!)
HEY - I'm the one that is usually the etenal optimist!
For the terminally curious, I've uploaded a picture of the innards of the LE
72/73 de WB8RCR http://www.qsl.net/wb8rcr
didileydadidah QRP-L #1446 Code Warriors #35
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Re: Re: newbie, I chose16F688, now what? - Michael Harpe - Jun 10 20:11:39 2008
I can also add my recommendation to get the ICD2. The cheap little programmers
are not supported well and need constant updating. They're also usually out of
spec in one way or another.
The ICD2 works very well. If you implement the in-circuit serial programming
(ICSP) as recommended by Microchip, your development workflow will be much
smoother. I would design your circuit such that you can leave the ICD2
connected all the time. When you do this the run/debug/program cycle is very
simple and painless.
You can find ICD2 kits on EBay occasionally at substantial discount. I bought a
factory-new kit on EBay.
Mike Harpe, N4PLE
Sellersburg, IN, USA
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are not supported well and need constant updating. They're also usually out of
spec in one way or another.
The ICD2 works very well. If you implement the in-circuit serial programming
(ICSP) as recommended by Microchip, your development workflow will be much
smoother. I would design your circuit such that you can leave the ICD2
connected all the time. When you do this the run/debug/program cycle is very
simple and painless.
You can find ICD2 kits on EBay occasionally at substantial discount. I bought a
factory-new kit on EBay.
Mike Harpe, N4PLE
Sellersburg, IN, USA
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