I have been in a whole bunch of businesses for a number of years but I don't
think I have ever heard a more outrageous, self centered, simplistic
business statement in my life. You wrote it as if you expect people to accept and
just go on using and trusting your product and company.
I usually take people for their word until they prove they can't be
trusted. I know when I have been swindled. You got me for the original hundred
bucks but if you think you are going to get me for another you are crazy. I
don't care how 'powerful, innovative and wonderful your new product is I am
not plunking down one red cent for it.
Word of mouth is the best advertisement you can get and as far as I am
concerned you are going to get from me exactly what you deserve.

**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------



(You need to be a member of oopic -- send a blank email to oopic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )

Also, I like that you're coming out with a new product, but I don't like
that you are dropping ALL support on Legacy products. When it does go
unsupported, I have wasted well over $100 on OOPics that cannot be used
anymore while in good shape. That's just STUPID. I may just go with the
PIC or the AVR. Yes I would agree that there's no other better way to piss
a customer off than by dropping all support suddenly.

___________________
Ray Xu
r...@tx.rr.com
DPRG member
OOPic group member
Seattle Robotics
group member
My Blog

-----Original Message-----
From: o...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:o...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
d...@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 6:15 PM
To: o...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [oopic] Re: Savage Innovations / Compiler / ooBug and etc..
UPDATE

I have been in a whole bunch of businesses for a number of years but I don't

think I have ever heard a more outrageous, self centered, simplistic
business statement in my life. You wrote it as if you expect people to
accept and
just go on using and trusting your product and company.
I usually take people for their word until they prove they can't be
trusted. I know when I have been swindled. You got me for the original
hundred
bucks but if you think you are going to get me for another you are crazy. I
don't care how 'powerful, innovative and wonderful your new product is I am
not plunking down one red cent for it.
Word of mouth is the best advertisement you can get and as far as I am
concerned you are going to get from me exactly what you deserve.

**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos.
(http://autos.
017> aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------



(You need to be a member of oopic -- send a blank email to oopic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )

One more thing, (sorry for this extra) company's main priority is to satisfy
the customers, but by doing something like dropping all support on a bunch
of popular products (theo) makes customers angry, and wont buy from it.
Thanks a lot my major school project is going to be late if it does go
unsupported anytime in the near future.

___________________
Ray Xu
r...@tx.rr.com
DPRG member
OOPic group member
Seattle Robotics
group member
My Blog

-----Original Message-----
From: o...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:o...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ray
xu
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 6:55 PM
To: o...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [oopic] Re: Savage Innovations / Compiler / ooBug and etc..
UPDATE

Also, I like that you're coming out with a new product, but I don't like
that you are dropping ALL support on Legacy products. When it does go
unsupported, I have wasted well over $100 on OOPics that cannot be used
anymore while in good shape. That's just STUPID. I may just go with the
PIC or the AVR. Yes I would agree that there's no other better way to piss
a customer off than by dropping all support suddenly.

___________________
Ray Xu
r...@tx.rr. com
DPRG org> member
OOPic
groups.yahoo.com/group/oopic/> group member
Seattle
groups.yahoo.com/group/SeattleRobotics/> Robotics
group member
My Blog blogspot.com/>
-----Original Message-----
From: oopic@yahoogroups. com
[mailto:oopic@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf
Of
dldlhfd@aol. com
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 6:15 PM
To: oopic@yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [oopic] Re: Savage Innovations / Compiler / ooBug and etc..
UPDATE

I have been in a whole bunch of businesses for a number of years but I don't

think I have ever heard a more outrageous, self centered, simplistic
business statement in my life. You wrote it as if you expect people to
accept and
just go on using and trusting your product and company.
I usually take people for their word until they prove they can't be
trusted. I know when I have been swindled. You got me for the original
hundred
bucks but if you think you are going to get me for another you are crazy. I
don't care how 'powerful, innovative and wonderful your new product is I am
not plunking down one red cent for it.
Word of mouth is the best advertisement you can get and as far as I am
concerned you are going to get from me exactly what you deserve.

**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos.
(http://autos.
> aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000
017> aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------



(You need to be a member of oopic -- send a blank email to oopic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )

Ok so that didn't go over too well... Please take the time and READ!

I am sorry guys, don't blame the messenger. I am not the major share
holder in the program here, rather, the little guy that gets the
dirty work.

The decision was decreed to me and I passed it along.

SO now we wont gloss over any facts... 2 YES 2 whole ooPics sold in
July. Yup we can sure make a business out of that. Thats what? 170
bucks worth of sales, care to run a business on that? When it was 300
units a month no problem or even 100 but 2? Don't forget that the
whopping 170 is before we pay to have the boards made and pay for a
website and pay for packaging etc... We also can't buy the boards one
at a time, they come in hundreds.

I truely am sorry that two different days had two different versions,
I did pass on the decisions play by play, right or wrong.

It does suck, for me as much as you. Not only is every robot I own
ooPic powered, some going back two A1 boards, I teach robotics as
well and guess what... every student I have is using one version or
another of the ooPic. I slipped once and used an avr, but I jumped
back.

I can't un make you pissed off and I can't make it all better. Of
course we do not want you to leave, that would be silly. I know that
SI has traditionally been weak on after the sale support and we are
trying to fix that. Anyone feel free to chime in and offer to do tech
support for free? Dennis did not want to...

I will talk to Scott further about the compiler and see if he can't
patch up the oEvent code before it is fully retired. The only two
real complaints that I could find by reading back, and recent posts,
come down to bad oEvents and Vista issues correct?

Dennis was not let go like some are trying to imply. Before my time
there was another much larger partner who decided to quit paying him
then that partner decided to move along, thats when I came along.
Things were bad and we had one new product that was starting to sell.

Please try and understand the business side of the decision, no money
coming in means it is very hard to dedicate unpaid time to that
product. As much as we would like to keep on going with the old we
personnaly cannot, we all have bills to pay and the new might pay
them. Every decision made was strictly financial.

I will move the compiler files to somewhere else. That site being
down was unitentional, poorly timed and certianly not done on
purpose. I will let you know where they end up. I am not even sure
why it went down just yet.

If you do decide to move along we are sorry to see you go and THANK
YOU for all the years of support. If you read the above, you now
understand why the decisions were made and we hope that with a little
patience you will stick it out for the ooPic Pro series.

If you did decide to hang in there then THANK YOU to that crowd.

If you have already swam the river all we can do is try to make a
better product with better support and try to get you to swim back.

Really, if you feel qualified and want to hang the moniker of SI Tech
Support on your signature send me an email. It is an unpaid position
for now but that will change in the future we hope. b...@oobug.com.

Jessica, It seems you may have inadvertantly left some of the facts
out of your post and because we have worked together for so long I
will not correct your mistakes in here. You may however contact me
for a complete and correct list. Your financial woes in business and
with SI/Pentar were before my time.

Ted
Savage Innovations

------------------------------------



(You need to be a member of oopic -- send a blank email to oopic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )

On Aug 1, 2008, at 5:07 PM, ray xu wrote:

> One more thing, (sorry for this extra) company's main priority is to=20=20
> satisfy
> the customers, but by doing something like dropping all support on a=20=20
> bunch
> of popular products (theo) makes customers angry, and wont buy from=20=20
> it.
> Thanks a lot my major school project is going to be late if it does go
> unsupported anytime in the near future.

For good support, go to Parallax. Their support is superb. I don't=20=20
really like the Basic Stamp 2 but their Propeller chip is fantastic,=20=20
once you get past the fact that there is no built-in A:D or D:A. There=20=20
is enough in their object library to do almost anything you want to do.

I have asked Parallax to do a version of their BoeBot with a Propeller=20=20
and then put a decent A:D chip on the board with support libraries.=20=20
With something like that I can get back to teaching robotics to the=20=20
kids at school.

BTW, until today's announcement I was planning to expand my use of the=20=20
OOPic at our school. Several of my students have purchased MarkIIIs=20=20
and other OOPic-powered 'bots. I was even considering replacing all=20=20
our BoeBots with ooBugs. It would be perfect for my classes.

But how can I trust Savage to support me? They have just dropped my=20=20
current environment on its face.

To Savage Innovations: you know, it would have been so simple. All you=20=20
had to do was do one last fix of core functionality (events comes to=20=20
mind here) THEN announce that you are going to end-of-life all the old=20=20
products but you will release the occasional bug fix. You would have=20=20
kept everyone on board I bet.

--

Brian Lloyd Granite Bay Montessori
brian AT gbmontessori DOT com 9330 Sierra College Blvd.
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) Roseville, CA 95661, USA
http://www.gbmontessori.com

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
=97 Antoine de Saint-Exup=E9ry

PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

------------------------------------



(You need to be a member of oopic -- send a blank email to oopic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )

Ok now that you have cleared up things before I left, that settles things
for me; I may still go with the oopic, but still unsure. The least
you/Savage can do is spare the compiler and the tech stuff.

Also, there's one more thing your missing about the compiler problems; its
that when you have another language besides English installed on the PC, the
compiler gets very confused and doesn't operate properly.

___________________
Ray Xu
r...@tx.rr.com
DPRG member
OOPic group member
Seattle Robotics
group member
My Blog

-----Original Message-----
From: o...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:o...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
theo570
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 7:38 PM
To: o...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [oopic] Re: Savage Innovations / Compiler / ooBug and etc.. UPDATE

Ok so that didn't go over too well... Please take the time and READ!

I am sorry guys, don't blame the messenger. I am not the major share
holder in the program here, rather, the little guy that gets the
dirty work.

The decision was decreed to me and I passed it along.

SO now we wont gloss over any facts... 2 YES 2 whole ooPics sold in
July. Yup we can sure make a business out of that. Thats what? 170
bucks worth of sales, care to run a business on that? When it was 300
units a month no problem or even 100 but 2? Don't forget that the
whopping 170 is before we pay to have the boards made and pay for a
website and pay for packaging etc... We also can't buy the boards one
at a time, they come in hundreds.

I truely am sorry that two different days had two different versions,
I did pass on the decisions play by play, right or wrong.

It does suck, for me as much as you. Not only is every robot I own
ooPic powered, some going back two A1 boards, I teach robotics as
well and guess what... every student I have is using one version or
another of the ooPic. I slipped once and used an avr, but I jumped
back.

I can't un make you pissed off and I can't make it all better. Of
course we do not want you to leave, that would be silly. I know that
SI has traditionally been weak on after the sale support and we are
trying to fix that. Anyone feel free to chime in and offer to do tech
support for free? Dennis did not want to...

I will talk to Scott further about the compiler and see if he can't
patch up the oEvent code before it is fully retired. The only two
real complaints that I could find by reading back, and recent posts,
come down to bad oEvents and Vista issues correct?

Dennis was not let go like some are trying to imply. Before my time
there was another much larger partner who decided to quit paying him
then that partner decided to move along, thats when I came along.
Things were bad and we had one new product that was starting to sell.

Please try and understand the business side of the decision, no money
coming in means it is very hard to dedicate unpaid time to that
product. As much as we would like to keep on going with the old we
personnaly cannot, we all have bills to pay and the new might pay
them. Every decision made was strictly financial.

I will move the compiler files to somewhere else. That site being
down was unitentional, poorly timed and certianly not done on
purpose. I will let you know where they end up. I am not even sure
why it went down just yet.

If you do decide to move along we are sorry to see you go and THANK
YOU for all the years of support. If you read the above, you now
understand why the decisions were made and we hope that with a little
patience you will stick it out for the ooPic Pro series.

If you did decide to hang in there then THANK YOU to that crowd.

If you have already swam the river all we can do is try to make a
better product with better support and try to get you to swim back.

Really, if you feel qualified and want to hang the moniker of SI Tech
Support on your signature send me an email. It is an unpaid position
for now but that will change in the future we hope. bigbug@oobug.
com.

Jessica, It seems you may have inadvertantly left some of the facts
out of your post and because we have worked together for so long I
will not correct your mistakes in here. You may however contact me
for a complete and correct list. Your financial woes in business and
with SI/Pentar were before my time.

Ted
Savage Innovations

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------



(You need to be a member of oopic -- send a blank email to oopic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )

And plus, maybe it would be a good idea to make the oobug into the oopic C,
S, or R form (Just replace the chipset). It would be a lot more flexible,
especially to me, and it would keep the R, S, and C still on-the-shelf.

___________________
Ray Xu
r...@tx.rr.com
DPRG member
OOPic group member
Seattle Robotics
group member
My Blog

-----Original Message-----
From: o...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:o...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ray
xu
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 7:44 PM
To: o...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [oopic] Re: Savage Innovations / Compiler / ooBug and etc..
UPDATE

Ok now that you have cleared up things before I left, that settles things
for me; I may still go with the oopic, but still unsure. The least
you/Savage can do is spare the compiler and the tech stuff.

Also, there's one more thing your missing about the compiler problems; its
that when you have another language besides English installed on the PC, the
compiler gets very confused and doesn't operate properly.

___________________
Ray Xu
r...@tx.rr. com
DPRG org> member
OOPic
groups.yahoo.com/group/oopic/> group member
Seattle
groups.yahoo.com/group/SeattleRobotics/> Robotics
group member
My Blog blogspot.com/>
-----Original Message-----
From: oopic@yahoogroups. com
[mailto:oopic@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf
Of
theo570
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 7:38 PM
To: oopic@yahoogroups. com
Subject: [oopic] Re: Savage Innovations / Compiler / ooBug and etc.. UPDATE

Ok so that didn't go over too well... Please take the time and READ!

I am sorry guys, don't blame the messenger. I am not the major share
holder in the program here, rather, the little guy that gets the
dirty work.

The decision was decreed to me and I passed it along.

SO now we wont gloss over any facts... 2 YES 2 whole ooPics sold in
July. Yup we can sure make a business out of that. Thats what? 170
bucks worth of sales, care to run a business on that? When it was 300
units a month no problem or even 100 but 2? Don't forget that the
whopping 170 is before we pay to have the boards made and pay for a
website and pay for packaging etc... We also can't buy the boards one
at a time, they come in hundreds.

I truely am sorry that two different days had two different versions,
I did pass on the decisions play by play, right or wrong.

It does suck, for me as much as you. Not only is every robot I own
ooPic powered, some going back two A1 boards, I teach robotics as
well and guess what... every student I have is using one version or
another of the ooPic. I slipped once and used an avr, but I jumped
back.

I can't un make you pissed off and I can't make it all better. Of
course we do not want you to leave, that would be silly. I know that
SI has traditionally been weak on after the sale support and we are
trying to fix that. Anyone feel free to chime in and offer to do tech
support for free? Dennis did not want to...

I will talk to Scott further about the compiler and see if he can't
patch up the oEvent code before it is fully retired. The only two
real complaints that I could find by reading back, and recent posts,
come down to bad oEvents and Vista issues correct?

Dennis was not let go like some are trying to imply. Before my time
there was another much larger partner who decided to quit paying him
then that partner decided to move along, thats when I came along.
Things were bad and we had one new product that was starting to sell.

Please try and understand the business side of the decision, no money
coming in means it is very hard to dedicate unpaid time to that
product. As much as we would like to keep on going with the old we
personnaly cannot, we all have bills to pay and the new might pay
them. Every decision made was strictly financial.

I will move the compiler files to somewhere else. That site being
down was unitentional, poorly timed and certianly not done on
purpose. I will let you know where they end up. I am not even sure
why it went down just yet.

If you do decide to move along we are sorry to see you go and THANK
YOU for all the years of support. If you read the above, you now
understand why the decisions were made and we hope that with a little
patience you will stick it out for the ooPic Pro series.

If you did decide to hang in there then THANK YOU to that crowd.

If you have already swam the river all we can do is try to make a
better product with better support and try to get you to swim back.

Really, if you feel qualified and want to hang the moniker of SI Tech
Support on your signature send me an email. It is an unpaid position
for now but that will change in the future we hope. bigbug@oobug.
com.

Jessica, It seems you may have inadvertantly left some of the facts
out of your post and because we have worked together for so long I
will not correct your mistakes in here. You may however contact me
for a complete and correct list. Your financial woes in business and
with SI/Pentar were before my time.

Ted
Savage Innovations

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------



(You need to be a member of oopic -- send a blank email to oopic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )

--- In o...@yahoogroups.com, "ray xu" wrote:
>
> One more thing, (sorry for this extra) company's main priority is to
satisfy
> the customers, but by doing something like dropping all support on a
bunch
> of popular products (theo) makes customers angry, and wont buy from
it.
> Thanks a lot my major school project is going to be late if it does go
> unsupported anytime in the near future.
>

I think we have differing definitions of support or the lack there of.

Our intent is to focus on NEW product and try to pay the bills. We
cannot develop futher on old product so it stands as is. Please don't
get to thinking your ooPic is going to quit working, my green aliens
are still truckin' right along.

No, there will not be any newly manufactured old product such as the
C,S and R. That is unless we get a surge in interest all of the sudden.

No, we cannot do more work on the compiler RIGHT NOW. Maybe after the
dust settles and we get some new stuff on the market we can fall back
and make a few legacy tweaks. But it is what it is for now.

I am not sure how this affects your school project. Your ooPic does
what you bought it to to correct? The compiler is still and will always
be available. This group is still here and full of users who love to
help people out. If you have a real tricky question I can pull Scotts
head out of the code bag long enough to get him to answer a question. I
am around and if I have the same hardware on my bench I can wire up and
test your code out adn see if I can find a fix as well.

Unsupported does not mean gone it just means no more dev work.

Read my last post and try to understand our position please.

Here is something UNTESTED for VISTA users. Try turning the UAC OFF. It
seems to make the BioLab work just fine on Vista and it has the same
basic framework as the old compiler.

Ted
Savage Innovations
------------------------------------



(You need to be a member of oopic -- send a blank email to oopic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )

Read my last post Ray, all will be spared forever just not updated.

Ted

--- In o...@yahoogroups.com, "ray xu" wrote:
>
> Ok now that you have cleared up things before I left, that settles
things
> for me; I may still go with the oopic, but still unsure. The least
> you/Savage can do is spare the compiler and the tech stuff.
>
>
>
> Also, there's one more thing your missing about the compiler
problems; its
> that when you have another language besides English installed on
the PC, the
> compiler gets very confused and doesn't operate properly.
>
>
>
> ___________________
> Ray Xu
> rayxu@...
> DPRG member
> OOPic group member
> Seattle
Robotics
> group member
> My Blog -----Original Message-----
> From: o...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:o...@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of
> theo570
> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 7:38 PM
> To: o...@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [oopic] Re: Savage Innovations / Compiler / ooBug and
etc.. UPDATE
>
>
>
> Ok so that didn't go over too well... Please take the time and READ!
>
> I am sorry guys, don't blame the messenger. I am not the major
share
> holder in the program here, rather, the little guy that gets the
> dirty work.
>
> The decision was decreed to me and I passed it along.
>
> SO now we wont gloss over any facts... 2 YES 2 whole ooPics sold in
> July. Yup we can sure make a business out of that. Thats what? 170
> bucks worth of sales, care to run a business on that? When it was
300
> units a month no problem or even 100 but 2? Don't forget that the
> whopping 170 is before we pay to have the boards made and pay for a
> website and pay for packaging etc... We also can't buy the boards
one
> at a time, they come in hundreds.
>
> I truely am sorry that two different days had two different
versions,
> I did pass on the decisions play by play, right or wrong.
>
> It does suck, for me as much as you. Not only is every robot I own
> ooPic powered, some going back two A1 boards, I teach robotics as
> well and guess what... every student I have is using one version or
> another of the ooPic. I slipped once and used an avr, but I jumped
> back.
>
> I can't un make you pissed off and I can't make it all better. Of
> course we do not want you to leave, that would be silly. I know
that
> SI has traditionally been weak on after the sale support and we are
> trying to fix that. Anyone feel free to chime in and offer to do
tech
> support for free? Dennis did not want to...
>
> I will talk to Scott further about the compiler and see if he can't
> patch up the oEvent code before it is fully retired. The only two
> real complaints that I could find by reading back, and recent
posts,
> come down to bad oEvents and Vista issues correct?
>
> Dennis was not let go like some are trying to imply. Before my time
> there was another much larger partner who decided to quit paying
him
> then that partner decided to move along, thats when I came along.
> Things were bad and we had one new product that was starting to
sell.
>
> Please try and understand the business side of the decision, no
money
> coming in means it is very hard to dedicate unpaid time to that
> product. As much as we would like to keep on going with the old we
> personnaly cannot, we all have bills to pay and the new might pay
> them. Every decision made was strictly financial.
>
> I will move the compiler files to somewhere else. That site being
> down was unitentional, poorly timed and certianly not done on
> purpose. I will let you know where they end up. I am not even sure
> why it went down just yet.
>
> If you do decide to move along we are sorry to see you go and THANK
> YOU for all the years of support. If you read the above, you now
> understand why the decisions were made and we hope that with a
little
> patience you will stick it out for the ooPic Pro series.
>
> If you did decide to hang in there then THANK YOU to that crowd.
>
> If you have already swam the river all we can do is try to make a
> better product with better support and try to get you to swim back.
>
> Really, if you feel qualified and want to hang the moniker of SI
Tech
> Support on your signature send me an email. It is an unpaid
position
> for now but that will change in the future we hope. bigbug@oobug.
> com.
>
> Jessica, It seems you may have inadvertantly left some of the facts
> out of your post and because we have worked together for so long I
> will not correct your mistakes in here. You may however contact me
> for a complete and correct list. Your financial woes in business
and
> with SI/Pentar were before my time.
>
> Ted
> Savage Innovations
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

------------------------------------



(You need to be a member of oopic -- send a blank email to oopic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )

OK that one is my bad. The ooPic Pro series will probably end up on
an R board. I should not have left that out. The S board may not have
enough physical real estate.

New IC, new IC for USB, USB conn., 2 power supps etc.

Sorry for not keeping that clear.

Ted

--- In o...@yahoogroups.com, "ray xu" wrote:
>
> And plus, maybe it would be a good idea to make the oobug into the
oopic C,
> S, or R form (Just replace the chipset). It would be a lot more
flexible,
> especially to me, and it would keep the R, S, and C still on-the-
shelf.
>
>
>
> ___________________
> Ray Xu
> rayxu@...
> DPRG member
> OOPic group member
> Seattle
Robotics
> group member
> My Blog -----Original Message-----
> From: o...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:o...@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of ray
> xu
> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 7:44 PM
> To: o...@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [oopic] Re: Savage Innovations / Compiler / ooBug and
etc..
> UPDATE
>
>
>
> Ok now that you have cleared up things before I left, that settles
things
> for me; I may still go with the oopic, but still unsure. The least
> you/Savage can do is spare the compiler and the tech stuff.
>
> Also, there's one more thing your missing about the compiler
problems; its
> that when you have another language besides English installed on
the PC, the
> compiler gets very confused and doesn't operate properly.
>
> ___________________
> Ray Xu
> rayxu@... com
> DPRG org> member
> OOPic
> groups.yahoo.com/group/oopic/> group member
> Seattle
> groups.yahoo.com/group/SeattleRobotics/> Robotics
> group member
> My Blog
blogspot.com/>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: oopic@yahoogroups. com
> [mailto:oopic@yahoogroups. com] On
Behalf
> Of
> theo570
> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 7:38 PM
> To: oopic@yahoogroups. com
> Subject: [oopic] Re: Savage Innovations / Compiler / ooBug and
etc.. UPDATE
>
> Ok so that didn't go over too well... Please take the time and READ!
>
> I am sorry guys, don't blame the messenger. I am not the major
share
> holder in the program here, rather, the little guy that gets the
> dirty work.
>
> The decision was decreed to me and I passed it along.
>
> SO now we wont gloss over any facts... 2 YES 2 whole ooPics sold in
> July. Yup we can sure make a business out of that. Thats what? 170
> bucks worth of sales, care to run a business on that? When it was
300
> units a month no problem or even 100 but 2? Don't forget that the
> whopping 170 is before we pay to have the boards made and pay for a
> website and pay for packaging etc... We also can't buy the boards
one
> at a time, they come in hundreds.
>
> I truely am sorry that two different days had two different
versions,
> I did pass on the decisions play by play, right or wrong.
>
> It does suck, for me as much as you. Not only is every robot I own
> ooPic powered, some going back two A1 boards, I teach robotics as
> well and guess what... every student I have is using one version or
> another of the ooPic. I slipped once and used an avr, but I jumped
> back.
>
> I can't un make you pissed off and I can't make it all better. Of
> course we do not want you to leave, that would be silly. I know
that
> SI has traditionally been weak on after the sale support and we are
> trying to fix that. Anyone feel free to chime in and offer to do
tech
> support for free? Dennis did not want to...
>
> I will talk to Scott further about the compiler and see if he can't
> patch up the oEvent code before it is fully retired. The only two
> real complaints that I could find by reading back, and recent
posts,
> come down to bad oEvents and Vista issues correct?
>
> Dennis was not let go like some are trying to imply. Before my time
> there was another much larger partner who decided to quit paying
him
> then that partner decided to move along, thats when I came along.
> Things were bad and we had one new product that was starting to
sell.
>
> Please try and understand the business side of the decision, no
money
> coming in means it is very hard to dedicate unpaid time to that
> product. As much as we would like to keep on going with the old we
> personnaly cannot, we all have bills to pay and the new might pay
> them. Every decision made was strictly financial.
>
> I will move the compiler files to somewhere else. That site being
> down was unitentional, poorly timed and certianly not done on
> purpose. I will let you know where they end up. I am not even sure
> why it went down just yet.
>
> If you do decide to move along we are sorry to see you go and THANK
> YOU for all the years of support. If you read the above, you now
> understand why the decisions were made and we hope that with a
little
> patience you will stick it out for the ooPic Pro series.
>
> If you did decide to hang in there then THANK YOU to that crowd.
>
> If you have already swam the river all we can do is try to make a
> better product with better support and try to get you to swim back.
>
> Really, if you feel qualified and want to hang the moniker of SI
Tech
> Support on your signature send me an email. It is an unpaid
position
> for now but that will change in the future we hope. bigbug@oobug.
> com.
>
> Jessica, It seems you may have inadvertantly left some of the facts
> out of your post and because we have worked together for so long I
> will not correct your mistakes in here. You may however contact me
> for a complete and correct list. Your financial woes in business
and
> with SI/Pentar were before my time.
>
> Ted
> Savage Innovations
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

------------------------------------



(You need to be a member of oopic -- send a blank email to oopic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )

> I am not sure how this affects your school project. Your ooPic does
> what you bought it to to correct?

I will answer for myself on this: NO IT DOES NOT!

> The compiler is still and will always be available.

BUT IT DOES NOT WORK RIGHT! WE WERE PROMISED A FIX. WE WERE GIVEN A=20=20
DATE. I BOUGHT NEW PRODUCT BASED ON SUPPORT AND IMPROVEMENT. I HAVE=20=20
BEEN DROPPED ON MY FACE!

> This group is still here and full of users who love to
> help people out. If you have a real tricky question I can pull Scotts
> head out of the code bag long enough to get him to answer a=20=20
> question. I
> am around and if I have the same hardware on my bench I can wire up=20=20
> and
> test your code out adn see if I can find a fix as well.

EVENTS DON'T WORK IN V6! I have a number OF OOPIC-C's. They don't work=20=20
right.

> Unsupported does not mean gone it just means no more dev work.

I don't care if you do more dev work. I just want the low-level basic=20=20
functionality that were were told was in the product to work as=20=20
documented. That is pretty basic.

> Read my last post and try to understand our position please.

Of course I understand your position. The problem is, you are doing=20=20
nothing to understand ours. And *WE* are the customers. We are the=20=20
people who buy your products! Hello!?!?

> Here is something UNTESTED for VISTA users. Try turning the UAC OFF.=20=20
> It
> seems to make the BioLab work just fine on Vista and it has the same
> basic framework as the old compiler.

Vista is not a big issue (at least not to me).I don't know anyone who=20=20
knowingly runs Vista. Everyone I know has fallen back to XP. Hey, make=20=20
it work like the doc says it does on XP.

--

Brian Lloyd Granite Bay Montessori
brian AT gbmontessori DOT com 9330 Sierra College Blvd.
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) Roseville, CA 95661, USA
http://www.gbmontessori.com

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
=97 Antoine de Saint-Exup=E9ry

PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

------------------------------------



(You need to be a member of oopic -- send a blank email to oopic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )

Ok thanks, I thought Savage is going to pull ALL support on the OOPic legacy
stuff, including the compiler. If the compiler doesn't get pulled, I'm
fine.unless I would need an OOPic C.

Just wondering, when will that "Pro series" on an R be out, or am I mistaken
with the ooBug (I didn't see any general purpose IO on it)?

___________________
Ray Xu
r...@tx.rr.com
DPRG member
OOPic group member
Seattle Robotics
group member
My Blog

-----Original Message-----
From: o...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:o...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
theo570
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 8:01 PM
To: o...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [oopic] Re: Savage Innovations / Compiler / ooBug and etc.. UPDATE

OK that one is my bad. The ooPic Pro series will probably end up on
an R board. I should not have left that out. The S board may not have
enough physical real estate.

New IC, new IC for USB, USB conn., 2 power supps etc.

Sorry for not keeping that clear.

Ted

--- In oopic@yahoogroups. com, "ray xu"
wrote:
>
> And plus, maybe it would be a good idea to make the oobug into the
oopic C,
> S, or R form (Just replace the chipset). It would be a lot more
flexible,
> especially to me, and it would keep the R, S, and C still on-the-
shelf.
>
> ___________________
> Ray Xu
> rayxu@...
> DPRG org> member
> OOPic
groups.yahoo.com/group/oopic/> group member
> Seattle
groups.yahoo.com/group/SeattleRobotics/>
Robotics
> group member
> My Blog
blogspot.com/> -----Original Message-----
> From: oopic@yahoogroups. com
[mailto:oopic@yahoogroups. com] On
Behalf Of ray
> xu
> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 7:44 PM
> To: oopic@yahoogroups. com
> Subject: RE: [oopic] Re: Savage Innovations / Compiler / ooBug and
etc..
> UPDATE
>
> Ok now that you have cleared up things before I left, that settles
things
> for me; I may still go with the oopic, but still unsure. The least
> you/Savage can do is spare the compiler and the tech stuff.
>
> Also, there's one more thing your missing about the compiler
problems; its
> that when you have another language besides English installed on
the PC, the
> compiler gets very confused and doesn't operate properly.
>
> ___________________
> Ray Xu
> rayxu@... com
> DPRG org> org>
member
> OOPic groups.yahoo.com/group/oopic/>
> groups.yahoo.com/group/oopic/> group member
> Seattle
groups.yahoo.com/group/SeattleRobotics/>
> groups.yahoo.com/group/SeattleRobotics/> Robotics
> group member
> My Blog blogspot.com/>
blogspot.com/>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: oopic@yahoogroups. com
> [mailto:oopic@yahoogroups. com] On
Behalf
> Of
> theo570
> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 7:38 PM
> To: oopic@yahoogroups. com
> Subject: [oopic] Re: Savage Innovations / Compiler / ooBug and
etc.. UPDATE
>
> Ok so that didn't go over too well... Please take the time and READ!
>
> I am sorry guys, don't blame the messenger. I am not the major
share
> holder in the program here, rather, the little guy that gets the
> dirty work.
>
> The decision was decreed to me and I passed it along.
>
> SO now we wont gloss over any facts... 2 YES 2 whole ooPics sold in
> July. Yup we can sure make a business out of that. Thats what? 170
> bucks worth of sales, care to run a business on that? When it was
300
> units a month no problem or even 100 but 2? Don't forget that the
> whopping 170 is before we pay to have the boards made and pay for a
> website and pay for packaging etc... We also can't buy the boards
one
> at a time, they come in hundreds.
>
> I truely am sorry that two different days had two different
versions,
> I did pass on the decisions play by play, right or wrong.
>
> It does suck, for me as much as you. Not only is every robot I own
> ooPic powered, some going back two A1 boards, I teach robotics as
> well and guess what... every student I have is using one version or
> another of the ooPic. I slipped once and used an avr, but I jumped
> back.
>
> I can't un make you pissed off and I can't make it all better. Of
> course we do not want you to leave, that would be silly. I know
that
> SI has traditionally been weak on after the sale support and we are
> trying to fix that. Anyone feel free to chime in and offer to do
tech
> support for free? Dennis did not want to...
>
> I will talk to Scott further about the compiler and see if he can't
> patch up the oEvent code before it is fully retired. The only two
> real complaints that I could find by reading back, and recent
posts,
> come down to bad oEvents and Vista issues correct?
>
> Dennis was not let go like some are trying to imply. Before my time
> there was another much larger partner who decided to quit paying
him
> then that partner decided to move along, thats when I came along.
> Things were bad and we had one new product that was starting to
sell.
>
> Please try and understand the business side of the decision, no
money
> coming in means it is very hard to dedicate unpaid time to that
> product. As much as we would like to keep on going with the old we
> personnaly cannot, we all have bills to pay and the new might pay
> them. Every decision made was strictly financial.
>
> I will move the compiler files to somewhere else. That site being
> down was unitentional, poorly timed and certianly not done on
> purpose. I will let you know where they end up. I am not even sure
> why it went down just yet.
>
> If you do decide to move along we are sorry to see you go and THANK
> YOU for all the years of support. If you read the above, you now
> understand why the decisions were made and we hope that with a
little
> patience you will stick it out for the ooPic Pro series.
>
> If you did decide to hang in there then THANK YOU to that crowd.
>
> If you have already swam the river all we can do is try to make a
> better product with better support and try to get you to swim back.
>
> Really, if you feel qualified and want to hang the moniker of SI
Tech
> Support on your signature send me an email. It is an unpaid
position
> for now but that will change in the future we hope. bigbug@oobug.
> com.
>
> Jessica, It seems you may have inadvertantly left some of the facts
> out of your post and because we have worked together for so long I
> will not correct your mistakes in here. You may however contact me
> for a complete and correct list. Your financial woes in business
and
> with SI/Pentar were before my time.
>
> Ted
> Savage Innovations
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------



(You need to be a member of oopic -- send a blank email to oopic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )

Brian, first read my last post.

Yes I do understand your position, I own about 23 different oopics=20
most installed in robots or projects of some kind. My classroom kids=20
all have them in robots. Yea we are in the same boat.

I know I cannot make everyone happy here and I know you are pissed. I=20
did not promise anything previous of May and yes I know Scott did.

I will try and talk him into looking into the event thing AS TIME=20
ALLOWS. I PROMISE TO DO THIS. I cannot make him do it but I can try=20
and push some buttons. Keep in mind the change may simply be users=20
manual and not code.

That is my first SI promise lol and I will keep it.

Ted

--- In o...@yahoogroups.com, Brian Lloyd wrote:
>
> > I am not sure how this affects your school project. Your ooPic=20
does
> > what you bought it to to correct?
>=20
> I will answer for myself on this: NO IT DOES NOT!
>=20
> > The compiler is still and will always be available.
>=20
> BUT IT DOES NOT WORK RIGHT! WE WERE PROMISED A FIX. WE WERE GIVEN=20
A=20=20
> DATE. I BOUGHT NEW PRODUCT BASED ON SUPPORT AND IMPROVEMENT. I=20
HAVE=20=20
> BEEN DROPPED ON MY FACE!
>=20
> > This group is still here and full of users who love to
> > help people out. If you have a real tricky question I can pull=20
Scotts
> > head out of the code bag long enough to get him to answer a=20=20
> > question. I
> > am around and if I have the same hardware on my bench I can wire=20
up=20=20
> > and
> > test your code out adn see if I can find a fix as well.
>=20
> EVENTS DON'T WORK IN V6! I have a number OF OOPIC-C's. They don't=20
work=20=20
> right.
>=20
> > Unsupported does not mean gone it just means no more dev work.
>=20
> I don't care if you do more dev work. I just want the low-level=20
basic=20=20
> functionality that were were told was in the product to work as=20=20
> documented. That is pretty basic.
>=20
> > Read my last post and try to understand our position please.
>=20
> Of course I understand your position. The problem is, you are=20
doing=20=20
> nothing to understand ours. And *WE* are the customers. We are the=20=20
> people who buy your products! Hello!?!?
>=20
> >
> >
> > Here is something UNTESTED for VISTA users. Try turning the UAC=20
OFF.=20=20
> > It
> > seems to make the BioLab work just fine on Vista and it has the=20
same
> > basic framework as the old compiler.
>=20
> Vista is not a big issue (at least not to me).I don't know anyone=20
who=20=20
> knowingly runs Vista. Everyone I know has fallen back to XP. Hey,=20
make=20=20
> it work like the doc says it does on XP.
>=20
> --
>=20
> Brian Lloyd Granite Bay Montessori
> brian AT gbmontessori DOT com 9330 Sierra College Blvd.
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) Roseville, CA 95661, USA
> http://www.gbmontessori.com
>=20
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty=20
things . . .
> =97 Antoine de Saint-Exup=E9ry
>=20
> PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
> PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A=20
1B6C
>

------------------------------------



(You need to be a member of oopic -- send a blank email to oopic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )

You won't see that one fixed. Scott used Windows API calls for
string handling functionality instead of just writing his own
functions or borrowing code from available sources. The result is
assumptions (like alpha sort order) that don't hold true under
non-English locales. It's not going to get rewritten.

At 08:43 PM 8/1/2008, ray xu wrote:
>Also, there's one more thing your missing about the compiler problems; its
>that when you have another language besides English installed on the PC, the
>compiler gets very confused and doesn't operate properly.

------------------------------------



(You need to be a member of oopic -- send a blank email to oopic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )

At 09:17 PM 8/1/2008, theo570 wrote:
>The decision was decreed to me and I passed it along.

Yes, it had Scott Savage written all over it.
>I will try and talk him into looking into the event thing AS TIME
>ALLOWS. I PROMISE TO DO THIS. I cannot make him do it but I can try
>and push some buttons. Keep in mind the change may simply be users
>manual and not code.

I don't follow you. The V6 compiler isn't putting event handler
addresses into the binaries (.oex files); with no event handler
address in the event object(s) (in the object list), there is no way
for the OOPic firmware to call event handlers. How is that anything
but a compiler bug?

How much time could it possibly take to add the few lines it takes to
fix that bug? The V5 compiler does it, so just have Scott take a
look at that source code if he needs some pointers on how to store a
16 bit pointer in an .oex file.

As for where the money comes from to do this, it comes from all of
the OOPic sales to date. That's what paid for the compiler
development in the first place. When you move 300 units in a month,
you don't blow the profits on Aeron chairs and Foosball tables. If
profits can't cover R&D plus support, your business model is non-viable.

So you're going to play with events this weekend? Be sure to use the
V6 compiler. Best of luck with that - you'll need it.
...Andy

------------------------------------



(You need to be a member of oopic -- send a blank email to oopic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )

> >and push some buttons. Keep in mind the change may simply be users
> >manual and not code.
>
> I don't follow you. The V6 compiler isn't putting event handler
> addresses into the binaries (.oex files); with no event handler
> address in the event object(s) (in the object list), there is no
way
> for the OOPic firmware to call event handlers. How is that
anything
> but a compiler bug?

Andy, that was based on something Scott told me some time ago during
my oEvent woes. I may have missed his point. Like I said I will look
into it and try and get him to look into it.

> As for where the money comes from to do this, it comes from all of
> the OOPic sales to date. That's what paid for the compiler
> development in the first place. When you move 300 units in a
month,
> you don't blow the profits on Aeron chairs and Foosball tables. If
> profits can't cover R&D plus support, your business model is non-
viable.

Well since we don't have cool chairs or foosball tables I guess we
are ok... You are 100% right Andy, If profits can't cover R&D plus
support, your business model is non-viable. That is why we are here
today. All we can do at this point is try and fix it. We certainly
are not supporting anything with profits right now. Scott and I both
work outside of this little shindig. I am a cattle rancin',
firefightin' robot teacher and Scott is back to doing some dev work.

> So you're going to play with events this weekend? Be sure to use
the
> V6 compiler. Best of luck with that - you'll need it.
>

Like I stated before, they didn't work, and I quit trying. Before I
go to Scott I gotta get all of my duckys in a row with a compilation
of current evidence. I WILL TRY AND GET HIM TO TWEAK THE CODE if I
cant do what he said to do.

Ted

------------------------------------



(You need to be a member of oopic -- send a blank email to oopic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )

No Ted, YOU are the reason. Flat out.

--- In o...@yahoogroups.com, "theo570" wrote:
>
> Ok so that didn't go over too well... Please take the time and READ!
>
> I am sorry guys, don't blame the messenger. I am not the major
share
> holder in the program here, rather, the little guy that gets the
> dirty work.
>
> The decision was decreed to me and I passed it along.
>
> SO now we wont gloss over any facts... 2 YES 2 whole ooPics sold in
> July. Yup we can sure make a business out of that. Thats what? 170
> bucks worth of sales, care to run a business on that? When it was
300
> units a month no problem or even 100 but 2? Don't forget that the
> whopping 170 is before we pay to have the boards made and pay for a
> website and pay for packaging etc... We also can't buy the boards
one
> at a time, they come in hundreds.
>
> I truely am sorry that two different days had two different
versions,
> I did pass on the decisions play by play, right or wrong.
>
> It does suck, for me as much as you. Not only is every robot I own
> ooPic powered, some going back two A1 boards, I teach robotics as
> well and guess what... every student I have is using one version or
> another of the ooPic. I slipped once and used an avr, but I jumped
> back.
>
> I can't un make you pissed off and I can't make it all better. Of
> course we do not want you to leave, that would be silly. I know
that
> SI has traditionally been weak on after the sale support and we are
> trying to fix that. Anyone feel free to chime in and offer to do
tech
> support for free? Dennis did not want to...
>
> I will talk to Scott further about the compiler and see if he can't
> patch up the oEvent code before it is fully retired. The only two
> real complaints that I could find by reading back, and recent
posts,
> come down to bad oEvents and Vista issues correct?
>
> Dennis was not let go like some are trying to imply. Before my time
> there was another much larger partner who decided to quit paying
him
> then that partner decided to move along, thats when I came along.
> Things were bad and we had one new product that was starting to
sell.
>
> Please try and understand the business side of the decision, no
money
> coming in means it is very hard to dedicate unpaid time to that
> product. As much as we would like to keep on going with the old we
> personnaly cannot, we all have bills to pay and the new might pay
> them. Every decision made was strictly financial.
>
> I will move the compiler files to somewhere else. That site being
> down was unitentional, poorly timed and certianly not done on
> purpose. I will let you know where they end up. I am not even sure
> why it went down just yet.
>
> If you do decide to move along we are sorry to see you go and THANK
> YOU for all the years of support. If you read the above, you now
> understand why the decisions were made and we hope that with a
little
> patience you will stick it out for the ooPic Pro series.
>
> If you did decide to hang in there then THANK YOU to that crowd.
>
> If you have already swam the river all we can do is try to make a
> better product with better support and try to get you to swim back.
>
> Really, if you feel qualified and want to hang the moniker of SI
Tech
> Support on your signature send me an email. It is an unpaid
position
> for now but that will change in the future we hope. bigbug@...
>
> Jessica, It seems you may have inadvertantly left some of the facts
> out of your post and because we have worked together for so long I
> will not correct your mistakes in here. You may however contact me
> for a complete and correct list. Your financial woes in business
and
> with SI/Pentar were before my time.
>
> Ted
> Savage Innovations
>

------------------------------------



(You need to be a member of oopic -- send a blank email to oopic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )