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AVR Right for newbie hobbyist? - danjmaclean - Jan 25 21:10:00 2003
I'm about to dive in to robotics and am looking for an MCU platform
that will not only help me get started as a Newbie but also have all
the power I'd need for more complex projects.
I've ruled out the BASIC Stamp and probably the Oopic because of the
lack of flexibility and cost (I'd rather fry a $10 AVR or PIC by
mistake than an $80 OOPic or stamp).
I'm concerned that the AVR may not be available in small quantities
and maybe isn't as well documented with sample code as the PIC is.
(I could be wrong). Also, the PIC seems specifically suited for the
novice, with the only real downside seeming to be speed. Any
comments?
However, I think the AVR has the best compiler options. The free GCC
looks promising if I can find a book or other resource that can get
me going (assuming the C language doesn't change much between
compilers). And, if I'm in over my head, which would be likely with
GCC there's BASCOM available or some other inexpensive, but easier to
use, C compiler.
So, does it look like I'm going about this right? I'm not too
impressed with the PICBasic compiler. But I like the capabilities of
the PIC itself (I2C, etc.) and the abundance of Newbie-friendly
projects out there.
I plan to start really slow and, over the next few years, graduate
from a simple robot to one with an arm, maybe a weather station, some
simple motor-actuated fixtures or tools for work, all the way to my
pie-in-the sky desires: A trip computer and a 6-axis motion control
video camera dolly.
Thanks in advance for the help!
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
that will not only help me get started as a Newbie but also have all
the power I'd need for more complex projects.
I've ruled out the BASIC Stamp and probably the Oopic because of the
lack of flexibility and cost (I'd rather fry a $10 AVR or PIC by
mistake than an $80 OOPic or stamp).
I'm concerned that the AVR may not be available in small quantities
and maybe isn't as well documented with sample code as the PIC is.
(I could be wrong). Also, the PIC seems specifically suited for the
novice, with the only real downside seeming to be speed. Any
comments?
However, I think the AVR has the best compiler options. The free GCC
looks promising if I can find a book or other resource that can get
me going (assuming the C language doesn't change much between
compilers). And, if I'm in over my head, which would be likely with
GCC there's BASCOM available or some other inexpensive, but easier to
use, C compiler.
So, does it look like I'm going about this right? I'm not too
impressed with the PICBasic compiler. But I like the capabilities of
the PIC itself (I2C, etc.) and the abundance of Newbie-friendly
projects out there.
I plan to start really slow and, over the next few years, graduate
from a simple robot to one with an arm, maybe a weather station, some
simple motor-actuated fixtures or tools for work, all the way to my
pie-in-the sky desires: A trip computer and a 6-axis motion control
video camera dolly.
Thanks in advance for the help!
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: [AVR club] AVR Right for newbie hobbyist? - prasad mehendale - Jan 25 22:32:00 2003
On Sunday 26 January 2003 06:40, you wrote:
> I'm about to dive in to robotics and am looking for an MCU platform
> that will not only help me get started as a Newbie but also have all
> the power I'd need for more complex projects.
>
> I've ruled out the BASIC Stamp and probably the Oopic because of the
> lack of flexibility and cost (I'd rather fry a $10 AVR or PIC by
> mistake than an $80 OOPic or stamp).
>
> I'm concerned that the AVR may not be available in small quantities
> and maybe isn't as well documented with sample code as the PIC is.
> (I could be wrong). Also, the PIC seems specifically suited for the
> novice, with the only real downside seeming to be speed. Any
> comments?
- PIC is supposed to be a chip with too much reduced instruction set that some times falls short for writing fastest and more accurate programs.
- AVR gives you instructions that are very specific, so time saving.
> However, I think the AVR has the best compiler options. The free GCC
> looks promising if I can find a book or other resource that can get
> me going (assuming the C language doesn't change much between
> compilers). And, if I'm in over my head, which would be likely with
> GCC there's BASCOM available or some other inexpensive, but easier to
> use, C compiler.
- I have tried some evaluation versions of commerical C compilers and I found AVRGCC to be the best. You can generate quite a tight code by using it. It's C is not much different from the regular C langugae.
> So, does it look like I'm going about this right? I'm not too
> impressed with the PICBasic compiler. But I like the capabilities of
> the PIC itself (I2C, etc.) and the abundance of Newbie-friendly
> projects out there.
- You can implement I2C by software on any AVR.
- AVR has got other tools that are free and very powerful. They are like AvrStudio3.xx or 4.xx.; chip programmers are also very simple low cost and effective (pony prog) and sp12(if you like command line interface).
> I plan to start really slow and, over the next few years, graduate
> from a simple robot to one with an arm, maybe a weather station, some
> simple motor-actuated fixtures or tools for work, all the way to my
> pie-in-the sky desires: A trip computer and a 6-axis motion control
> video camera dolly.
- in my openion, speed of the device might be the most important parameter for your projects in robotics.
- at our place(india) AVRs are available even in small quantities, so may be they are at yours.
- one more suggstion you didn't ask about. use assembly whenever and whereever possible. it is simpler and gives you all the benefits of speed and accuracy.
prasad
> Thanks in advance for the help! > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> avrclub-unsubscribe@avrc...
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
> I'm about to dive in to robotics and am looking for an MCU platform
> that will not only help me get started as a Newbie but also have all
> the power I'd need for more complex projects.
>
> I've ruled out the BASIC Stamp and probably the Oopic because of the
> lack of flexibility and cost (I'd rather fry a $10 AVR or PIC by
> mistake than an $80 OOPic or stamp).
>
> I'm concerned that the AVR may not be available in small quantities
> and maybe isn't as well documented with sample code as the PIC is.
> (I could be wrong). Also, the PIC seems specifically suited for the
> novice, with the only real downside seeming to be speed. Any
> comments?
- PIC is supposed to be a chip with too much reduced instruction set that some times falls short for writing fastest and more accurate programs.
- AVR gives you instructions that are very specific, so time saving.
> However, I think the AVR has the best compiler options. The free GCC
> looks promising if I can find a book or other resource that can get
> me going (assuming the C language doesn't change much between
> compilers). And, if I'm in over my head, which would be likely with
> GCC there's BASCOM available or some other inexpensive, but easier to
> use, C compiler.
- I have tried some evaluation versions of commerical C compilers and I found AVRGCC to be the best. You can generate quite a tight code by using it. It's C is not much different from the regular C langugae.
> So, does it look like I'm going about this right? I'm not too
> impressed with the PICBasic compiler. But I like the capabilities of
> the PIC itself (I2C, etc.) and the abundance of Newbie-friendly
> projects out there.
- You can implement I2C by software on any AVR.
- AVR has got other tools that are free and very powerful. They are like AvrStudio3.xx or 4.xx.; chip programmers are also very simple low cost and effective (pony prog) and sp12(if you like command line interface).
> I plan to start really slow and, over the next few years, graduate
> from a simple robot to one with an arm, maybe a weather station, some
> simple motor-actuated fixtures or tools for work, all the way to my
> pie-in-the sky desires: A trip computer and a 6-axis motion control
> video camera dolly.
- in my openion, speed of the device might be the most important parameter for your projects in robotics.
- at our place(india) AVRs are available even in small quantities, so may be they are at yours.
- one more suggstion you didn't ask about. use assembly whenever and whereever possible. it is simpler and gives you all the benefits of speed and accuracy.
prasad
> Thanks in advance for the help! > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> avrclub-unsubscribe@avrc...
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: AVR Right for newbie hobbyist? - poitsplace - Jan 26 5:57:00 2003
--- In avrclub@avrc..., "danjmaclean <captainvideo@w...>"
<captainvideo@w...> wrote:
>...about to dive in to robotics...have all the power...
> I'm concerned that the AVR may not be available in small quantities
> and maybe isn't as well documented with sample code as the PIC is.
> (I could be wrong). Also, the PIC seems specifically suited for
the novice, with the only real downside seeming to be speed. Any
> comments?
AVR instructions are more flexible than the PIC's...so you need fewer
to do the same job. If you want simplicity...use the BASCOM compiler
as a crutch until you get down a better language (still using my
crutch ;) If/when you finally do get around to using the assembler,
you'll really appreciate having all the extra bells and whistles
(like being able to branch and using more than one register)
as for costs...AVR's are as cheap (if not cheaper). A nice (ie,
CHEAP) one to start with is the AT90S2313. Do yourself a favor...if
you don't get some sort of development kit (with RS-232)...order one
or two MAX232 chips when you order your MCUs. The 2313 has an
onboard UART so you can use a terminal emulator on your computer for
I/O!
One place to check for parts is http://www.digikey.com
anyway, that's my two cents...wish I could be of more assistance, but
I'm still not great with AVRs
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
<captainvideo@w...> wrote:
>...about to dive in to robotics...have all the power...
> I'm concerned that the AVR may not be available in small quantities
> and maybe isn't as well documented with sample code as the PIC is.
> (I could be wrong). Also, the PIC seems specifically suited for
the novice, with the only real downside seeming to be speed. Any
> comments?
AVR instructions are more flexible than the PIC's...so you need fewer
to do the same job. If you want simplicity...use the BASCOM compiler
as a crutch until you get down a better language (still using my
crutch ;) If/when you finally do get around to using the assembler,
you'll really appreciate having all the extra bells and whistles
(like being able to branch and using more than one register)
as for costs...AVR's are as cheap (if not cheaper). A nice (ie,
CHEAP) one to start with is the AT90S2313. Do yourself a favor...if
you don't get some sort of development kit (with RS-232)...order one
or two MAX232 chips when you order your MCUs. The 2313 has an
onboard UART so you can use a terminal emulator on your computer for
I/O!
One place to check for parts is http://www.digikey.com
anyway, that's my two cents...wish I could be of more assistance, but
I'm still not great with AVRs
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
RE: [AVR club] AVR Right for newbie hobbyist? - Dan Thames - Jan 26 11:12:00 2003
Dan,
I have had a little hobby experience with micros, about 12 years ago. A
few months ago I started a project, and purchased a couple of Stamps.
Quickly I determined they would not meet my needs, plus the cost of
several more of them was not attractive. Someone recommend the AVR to
me. I purchased a $20 evaluation/experiment board from
<http://www.futurlec.com/ATDevBoard.html> and downloaded the evaluation
version of BASCOM. I as writing code in no time. Later I purchased 3
of the AT90S2313 from Digikey (yes, small quantities, about $5 each). I
built a wire wrap board and was off and running. At a later date, I was
excited to get a bigger AVR chip (Mega8) up and running and I connected
12 volts to it instead of 5 volts. I was connected for about 10
seconds. Believe it or not, it appears not to have damaged the chip,
and I have that ship running in another board that I am working on. So,
it is pretty newbie friendly, if you ask me.
Dan Thames
-----Original Message-----
From: danjmaclean <captainvideo@capt...>
[mailto:captainvideo@capt...]
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 7:11 PM
To: avrclub@avrc...
Subject: [AVR club] AVR Right for newbie hobbyist?
I'm about to dive in to robotics and am looking for an MCU platform
that will not only help me get started as a Newbie but also have all
the power I'd need for more complex projects.
I've ruled out the BASIC Stamp and probably the Oopic because of the
lack of flexibility and cost (I'd rather fry a $10 AVR or PIC by
mistake than an $80 OOPic or stamp).
I'm concerned that the AVR may not be available in small quantities
and maybe isn't as well documented with sample code as the PIC is.
(I could be wrong). Also, the PIC seems specifically suited for the
novice, with the only real downside seeming to be speed. Any
comments?
However, I think the AVR has the best compiler options. The free GCC
looks promising if I can find a book or other resource that can get
me going (assuming the C language doesn't change much between
compilers). And, if I'm in over my head, which would be likely with
GCC there's BASCOM available or some other inexpensive, but easier to
use, C compiler.
So, does it look like I'm going about this right? I'm not too
impressed with the PICBasic compiler. But I like the capabilities of
the PIC itself (I2C, etc.) and the abundance of Newbie-friendly
projects out there.
I plan to start really slow and, over the next few years, graduate
from a simple robot to one with an arm, maybe a weather station, some
simple motor-actuated fixtures or tools for work, all the way to my
pie-in-the sky desires: A trip computer and a 6-axis motion control
video camera dolly.
Thanks in advance for the help! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=241773.2861420.4212388.2848452/D=egroupweb/S=1706
554205:HM/A=1394046/R=0/*http:/www.hgtv.com/hgtv/pac_ctnt/text/0,,HGTV_3
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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
avrclub-unsubscribe@avrc...
> Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
______________________________
controlSUITE™ software. Comprehensive. Intuitive. Optimized.
Real-world software for real-time control. Details Here!
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
I have had a little hobby experience with micros, about 12 years ago. A
few months ago I started a project, and purchased a couple of Stamps.
Quickly I determined they would not meet my needs, plus the cost of
several more of them was not attractive. Someone recommend the AVR to
me. I purchased a $20 evaluation/experiment board from
<http://www.futurlec.com/ATDevBoard.html> and downloaded the evaluation
version of BASCOM. I as writing code in no time. Later I purchased 3
of the AT90S2313 from Digikey (yes, small quantities, about $5 each). I
built a wire wrap board and was off and running. At a later date, I was
excited to get a bigger AVR chip (Mega8) up and running and I connected
12 volts to it instead of 5 volts. I was connected for about 10
seconds. Believe it or not, it appears not to have damaged the chip,
and I have that ship running in another board that I am working on. So,
it is pretty newbie friendly, if you ask me.
Dan Thames
-----Original Message-----
From: danjmaclean <captainvideo@capt...>
[mailto:captainvideo@capt...]
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 7:11 PM
To: avrclub@avrc...
Subject: [AVR club] AVR Right for newbie hobbyist?
I'm about to dive in to robotics and am looking for an MCU platform
that will not only help me get started as a Newbie but also have all
the power I'd need for more complex projects.
I've ruled out the BASIC Stamp and probably the Oopic because of the
lack of flexibility and cost (I'd rather fry a $10 AVR or PIC by
mistake than an $80 OOPic or stamp).
I'm concerned that the AVR may not be available in small quantities
and maybe isn't as well documented with sample code as the PIC is.
(I could be wrong). Also, the PIC seems specifically suited for the
novice, with the only real downside seeming to be speed. Any
comments?
However, I think the AVR has the best compiler options. The free GCC
looks promising if I can find a book or other resource that can get
me going (assuming the C language doesn't change much between
compilers). And, if I'm in over my head, which would be likely with
GCC there's BASCOM available or some other inexpensive, but easier to
use, C compiler.
So, does it look like I'm going about this right? I'm not too
impressed with the PICBasic compiler. But I like the capabilities of
the PIC itself (I2C, etc.) and the abundance of Newbie-friendly
projects out there.
I plan to start really slow and, over the next few years, graduate
from a simple robot to one with an arm, maybe a weather station, some
simple motor-actuated fixtures or tools for work, all the way to my
pie-in-the sky desires: A trip computer and a 6-axis motion control
video camera dolly.
Thanks in advance for the help! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=241773.2861420.4212388.2848452/D=egroupweb/S=1706
554205:HM/A=1394046/R=0/*http:/www.hgtv.com/hgtv/pac_ctnt/text/0,,HGTV_3
936_5802,FF.html> HGTV Dream Home Giveaway <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=241773.2861420.4212388.2848452/D=egrou
pmail/S=:HM/A=1394046/rand=671718558>
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
avrclub-unsubscribe@avrc...
> Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
______________________________
controlSUITE™ software. Comprehensive. Intuitive. Optimized.
Real-world software for real-time control. Details Here!
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: [AVR club] AVR Right for newbie hobbyist? - Patrick A. Timlin - Jan 26 14:30:00 2003
Well let me throw my opinion into the mix (which fairly well mirrors the
other responses you got so far)... --- "danjmaclean <captainvideo@capt...>" <captainvideo@capt...> wrote:
> I'm about to dive in to robotics and am looking for an MCU platform
> that will not only help me get started as a Newbie but also have all
> the power I'd need for more complex projects.
As someone already pointed out, I think the "power" for hobbyist grade
robotics is not so high that MOST small microcontrollers on the market that
offer a good feature set can not handle it. When looking at the Microchip
(Pic) and Atmel (AVR) lines of micros, many people have done many robotic
projects with both lines with many different chips of various sizes, speeds
and capabilities, so I don't think that is going to be an issue for you. Now
it is a matetr of picking a line that is fairly easy to get into in terms of
costs, learning curve, availability of parts, etc. > I've ruled out the BASIC Stamp and probably the Oopic because of the
> lack of flexibility and cost (I'd rather fry a $10 AVR or PIC by
> mistake than an $80 OOPic or stamp).
Ya, I am not sure why BASIC stamps still sell. I guess there are some people
who want that kind of thing, but the price is rather large for what it is.
Seems like someone could come up with the same sort of product using a pic or
an AVR chip for much cheaper. With the AVR, you can still provide a easy to
use BASIC language in the form of the free DEMO version of BASCOM AVR, a
BASIC compiler for the AVR line (there is also a BASCOM for 8051 chips BTW).
Plus the Stamps use a BASIC interpreter while BASCOM is an actual compiler,
so the code would run much faster on an AVR than the BASIC Stamp's code can
run. > I'm concerned that the AVR may not be available in small quantities
Digi-key carries many of the AVR line, so small quantaties is not a problem
thru them and they stock most of the more common AVR chips. The AT90S2313,
mentioned by someone else, is kind of the old standby chip for the AVR line
(sort of the 'F84 of the Pic line) is usually stocked with Digikey for only a
few dollars each. > and maybe isn't as well documented with sample code as the PIC is.
> (I could be wrong).
Yes and no. It is well documented and lots of projects are available to look
at. www.avrfreaks.com is one of the best places to start looking. But you are
right that the AVR line is not nearly as well represented as the PIC line as
far as web pages featuring products, projects, etc. as the PIC is. But that
is slowly changing as the AVR is gaining ground on the PIC as far as a
hobbyist platform is concerned. > Also, the PIC seems specifically suited for the
> novice, with the only real downside seeming to be speed. Any
> comments?
I think that is true if you are talking about the BASIC Stamp which is a very
dumbed down product that is excellent for people who want something that is
super simple to use, but also do not mind paying that kind of money for what
essentially ends up being a single PIC chip with some support hardware around
it.
For a long while I was looking to get into SOME sort of small microcontroller
line to expand what I can do, both for hobby projects, and as an electrical
engineer. Naturally I started looking at the PIC line, specifically at the
'F84 chip like most people do. But I don't really know assembly (from other
platforms) so learning assembly would be a steep learning curve for me. I was
more interested in jumping in feet first and doing something, anything
(flashing an LED) working quickly. At the time (it might be different now)
there was not a lot of free tools for the Pic and the paid ones didn't seem
to offer free demos to try out.
So over time I never made the jump because I didn't want to invest money or
time into buying or making hardware only to not use it because I didn't have
time to dedicate to learning assembly. Eventually I learned about the AVR
line and found out there was a BASIC compiler called BASCOM that had a free
demo version you could download. The best part is the demo is full featured
nor time limited and the ONLY restriction is that the size of code you can
generate for the chip is limited to 2k. However MANY of the AVR line have a
flash space for code of 2k or less. This means for the smaller chips, you can
fully program them. You can also program on the larger chips no problem, just
that you can not write an 8k program for an 8k space unless you pay for
BASCOM. However BASCOM I think is very affordable at only about $70 US, so if
you find you like it and need more than 2k of code, it isn't a bank breaker.
Atmel sells an awesome intro developement kit, the STK-500, which is about
$79 US (Digi-key sells it). You can make your own programmers and prototype
board and Dontronics also sells a line of AVR boards and programmers that are
cheap and supposed to be good, but the STK-500 is really an awesome kit for
the price. If you don't mind spending 80 bucks, I think the STK-500 coupled
with the free demo version of BASCOM is a great way to try out the AVR line.
When I received my STK-500 kit, I literally had small programs up and running
the same day! To me that made it all worth while. It usually comes with two
chips to play with and if you order it from Digikey, you might want to order
a few other chips to try out at the same time. The tried and true '2313 is a
good one and maybe one of the newer ones like the mega8. > However, I think the AVR has the best compiler options. The free GCC
> looks promising if I can find a book or other resource that can get
> me going (assuming the C language doesn't change much between
> compilers). And, if I'm in over my head, which would be likely with
> GCC there's BASCOM available or some other inexpensive, but easier to
> use, C compiler.
Over at avrfreaks.com, there seems to be lots of fans of both the free GCC
compiler and the commercial Code Vision compiler. The latter I believe does
have a free demo version you can download. And like I said above, I am a big
fan of BASCOM. > So, does it look like I'm going about this right? I'm not too
> impressed with the PICBasic compiler. But I like the capabilities of
> the PIC itself (I2C, etc.) and the abundance of Newbie-friendly
> projects out there.
The AVR line features the same features (depending of which chips of course)
that the pic line carries. I2C, hardware UARTS, SPI, ADC, analog comparitors,
counter/timers, internal RC oscillators (if you don't want to bother with a
crystal), PWM, etc. are all present in various chips.
And BASCOM, and I am sure the same is true for the C compilers, has very nice
built in commands for many hardware circuitry like LCD driving, Maxim/Dallas
1Wire support, etc. etc. With a '2313 chip, I literally (on the STK-500 board
using BASCOM) in the hour was able to hook up a DS18B20 1Wire temperature
sensor, and had code running that would read the temperature from the sensor
and display the reading to both the RS-232 port to a terminal program and to
an LCD display I had hooked up. After that it was just fiddling and fine
tuning.
Hope that helps. =====
Patrick Timlin ptimlin@ptim...
http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/
__________________________________________________
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
other responses you got so far)... --- "danjmaclean <captainvideo@capt...>" <captainvideo@capt...> wrote:
> I'm about to dive in to robotics and am looking for an MCU platform
> that will not only help me get started as a Newbie but also have all
> the power I'd need for more complex projects.
As someone already pointed out, I think the "power" for hobbyist grade
robotics is not so high that MOST small microcontrollers on the market that
offer a good feature set can not handle it. When looking at the Microchip
(Pic) and Atmel (AVR) lines of micros, many people have done many robotic
projects with both lines with many different chips of various sizes, speeds
and capabilities, so I don't think that is going to be an issue for you. Now
it is a matetr of picking a line that is fairly easy to get into in terms of
costs, learning curve, availability of parts, etc. > I've ruled out the BASIC Stamp and probably the Oopic because of the
> lack of flexibility and cost (I'd rather fry a $10 AVR or PIC by
> mistake than an $80 OOPic or stamp).
Ya, I am not sure why BASIC stamps still sell. I guess there are some people
who want that kind of thing, but the price is rather large for what it is.
Seems like someone could come up with the same sort of product using a pic or
an AVR chip for much cheaper. With the AVR, you can still provide a easy to
use BASIC language in the form of the free DEMO version of BASCOM AVR, a
BASIC compiler for the AVR line (there is also a BASCOM for 8051 chips BTW).
Plus the Stamps use a BASIC interpreter while BASCOM is an actual compiler,
so the code would run much faster on an AVR than the BASIC Stamp's code can
run. > I'm concerned that the AVR may not be available in small quantities
Digi-key carries many of the AVR line, so small quantaties is not a problem
thru them and they stock most of the more common AVR chips. The AT90S2313,
mentioned by someone else, is kind of the old standby chip for the AVR line
(sort of the 'F84 of the Pic line) is usually stocked with Digikey for only a
few dollars each. > and maybe isn't as well documented with sample code as the PIC is.
> (I could be wrong).
Yes and no. It is well documented and lots of projects are available to look
at. www.avrfreaks.com is one of the best places to start looking. But you are
right that the AVR line is not nearly as well represented as the PIC line as
far as web pages featuring products, projects, etc. as the PIC is. But that
is slowly changing as the AVR is gaining ground on the PIC as far as a
hobbyist platform is concerned. > Also, the PIC seems specifically suited for the
> novice, with the only real downside seeming to be speed. Any
> comments?
I think that is true if you are talking about the BASIC Stamp which is a very
dumbed down product that is excellent for people who want something that is
super simple to use, but also do not mind paying that kind of money for what
essentially ends up being a single PIC chip with some support hardware around
it.
For a long while I was looking to get into SOME sort of small microcontroller
line to expand what I can do, both for hobby projects, and as an electrical
engineer. Naturally I started looking at the PIC line, specifically at the
'F84 chip like most people do. But I don't really know assembly (from other
platforms) so learning assembly would be a steep learning curve for me. I was
more interested in jumping in feet first and doing something, anything
(flashing an LED) working quickly. At the time (it might be different now)
there was not a lot of free tools for the Pic and the paid ones didn't seem
to offer free demos to try out.
So over time I never made the jump because I didn't want to invest money or
time into buying or making hardware only to not use it because I didn't have
time to dedicate to learning assembly. Eventually I learned about the AVR
line and found out there was a BASIC compiler called BASCOM that had a free
demo version you could download. The best part is the demo is full featured
nor time limited and the ONLY restriction is that the size of code you can
generate for the chip is limited to 2k. However MANY of the AVR line have a
flash space for code of 2k or less. This means for the smaller chips, you can
fully program them. You can also program on the larger chips no problem, just
that you can not write an 8k program for an 8k space unless you pay for
BASCOM. However BASCOM I think is very affordable at only about $70 US, so if
you find you like it and need more than 2k of code, it isn't a bank breaker.
Atmel sells an awesome intro developement kit, the STK-500, which is about
$79 US (Digi-key sells it). You can make your own programmers and prototype
board and Dontronics also sells a line of AVR boards and programmers that are
cheap and supposed to be good, but the STK-500 is really an awesome kit for
the price. If you don't mind spending 80 bucks, I think the STK-500 coupled
with the free demo version of BASCOM is a great way to try out the AVR line.
When I received my STK-500 kit, I literally had small programs up and running
the same day! To me that made it all worth while. It usually comes with two
chips to play with and if you order it from Digikey, you might want to order
a few other chips to try out at the same time. The tried and true '2313 is a
good one and maybe one of the newer ones like the mega8. > However, I think the AVR has the best compiler options. The free GCC
> looks promising if I can find a book or other resource that can get
> me going (assuming the C language doesn't change much between
> compilers). And, if I'm in over my head, which would be likely with
> GCC there's BASCOM available or some other inexpensive, but easier to
> use, C compiler.
Over at avrfreaks.com, there seems to be lots of fans of both the free GCC
compiler and the commercial Code Vision compiler. The latter I believe does
have a free demo version you can download. And like I said above, I am a big
fan of BASCOM. > So, does it look like I'm going about this right? I'm not too
> impressed with the PICBasic compiler. But I like the capabilities of
> the PIC itself (I2C, etc.) and the abundance of Newbie-friendly
> projects out there.
The AVR line features the same features (depending of which chips of course)
that the pic line carries. I2C, hardware UARTS, SPI, ADC, analog comparitors,
counter/timers, internal RC oscillators (if you don't want to bother with a
crystal), PWM, etc. are all present in various chips.
And BASCOM, and I am sure the same is true for the C compilers, has very nice
built in commands for many hardware circuitry like LCD driving, Maxim/Dallas
1Wire support, etc. etc. With a '2313 chip, I literally (on the STK-500 board
using BASCOM) in the hour was able to hook up a DS18B20 1Wire temperature
sensor, and had code running that would read the temperature from the sensor
and display the reading to both the RS-232 port to a terminal program and to
an LCD display I had hooked up. After that it was just fiddling and fine
tuning.
Hope that helps. =====
Patrick Timlin ptimlin@ptim...
http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/
__________________________________________________
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: AVR Right for newbie hobbyist? - danjmaclean - Jan 26 15:41:00 2003
I think I'm convinced! Thanks to all of you and for your thoughtful
and through replies.
The STK500 and evaluation version of BASCOM sound like a good start.
Does the 500 come with documentation describing some starter
projects, or is it just a board and some user documentation?
Assembly language scares me to death! Without an If/then statement
I'm lost! For me "C" is pretty scary, but I know I can learn it.
But, a free but limited BASCOM is probably better for me than
starting off with a free "C" compiler because it'll at least get me
up and running and familiar with the hardware.
Any suggestions on books or websites helping the beginner get started
with the AVR? Basically, I'm trying to avoid a situation where I'm
constantly running to an electronics store because I didn't know I
needed a resistor to pull up some voltage thingy or something.
Something to tell me the parts I need and why I need them.
Thanks again! --- In avrclub@avrc..., "Patrick A. Timlin" <ptimlin@y...>
wrote:
> Well let me throw my opinion into the mix (which fairly well
mirrors the
> other responses you got so far)... > --- "danjmaclean <captainvideo@w...>" <captainvideo@w...> wrote:
> > I'm about to dive in to robotics and am looking for an MCU
platform
> > that will not only help me get started as a Newbie but also have
all
> > the power I'd need for more complex projects.
>
> As someone already pointed out, I think the "power" for hobbyist
grade
> robotics is not so high that MOST small microcontrollers on the
market that
> offer a good feature set can not handle it. When looking at the
Microchip
> (Pic) and Atmel (AVR) lines of micros, many people have done many
robotic
> projects with both lines with many different chips of various
sizes, speeds
> and capabilities, so I don't think that is going to be an issue for
you. Now
> it is a matetr of picking a line that is fairly easy to get into in
terms of
> costs, learning curve, availability of parts, etc. > > I've ruled out the BASIC Stamp and probably the Oopic because of
the
> > lack of flexibility and cost (I'd rather fry a $10 AVR or PIC by
> > mistake than an $80 OOPic or stamp).
>
> Ya, I am not sure why BASIC stamps still sell. I guess there are
some people
> who want that kind of thing, but the price is rather large for what
it is.
> Seems like someone could come up with the same sort of product
using a pic or
> an AVR chip for much cheaper. With the AVR, you can still provide a
easy to
> use BASIC language in the form of the free DEMO version of BASCOM
AVR, a
> BASIC compiler for the AVR line (there is also a BASCOM for 8051
chips BTW).
> Plus the Stamps use a BASIC interpreter while BASCOM is an actual
compiler,
> so the code would run much faster on an AVR than the BASIC Stamp's
code can
> run. > > I'm concerned that the AVR may not be available in small
quantities
>
> Digi-key carries many of the AVR line, so small quantaties is not a
problem
> thru them and they stock most of the more common AVR chips. The
AT90S2313,
> mentioned by someone else, is kind of the old standby chip for the
AVR line
> (sort of the 'F84 of the Pic line) is usually stocked with Digikey
for only a
> few dollars each. > > and maybe isn't as well documented with sample code as the PIC
is.
> > (I could be wrong).
>
> Yes and no. It is well documented and lots of projects are
available to look
> at. www.avrfreaks.com is one of the best places to start looking.
But you are
> right that the AVR line is not nearly as well represented as the
PIC line as
> far as web pages featuring products, projects, etc. as the PIC is.
But that
> is slowly changing as the AVR is gaining ground on the PIC as far
as a
> hobbyist platform is concerned. > > Also, the PIC seems specifically suited for the
> > novice, with the only real downside seeming to be speed. Any
> > comments?
>
> I think that is true if you are talking about the BASIC Stamp which
is a very
> dumbed down product that is excellent for people who want something
that is
> super simple to use, but also do not mind paying that kind of money
for what
> essentially ends up being a single PIC chip with some support
hardware around
> it.
>
> For a long while I was looking to get into SOME sort of small
microcontroller
> line to expand what I can do, both for hobby projects, and as an
electrical
> engineer. Naturally I started looking at the PIC line, specifically
at the
> 'F84 chip like most people do. But I don't really know assembly
(from other
> platforms) so learning assembly would be a steep learning curve for
me. I was
> more interested in jumping in feet first and doing something,
anything
> (flashing an LED) working quickly. At the time (it might be
different now)
> there was not a lot of free tools for the Pic and the paid ones
didn't seem
> to offer free demos to try out.
>
> So over time I never made the jump because I didn't want to invest
money or
> time into buying or making hardware only to not use it because I
didn't have
> time to dedicate to learning assembly. Eventually I learned about
the AVR
> line and found out there was a BASIC compiler called BASCOM that
had a free
> demo version you could download. The best part is the demo is full
featured
> nor time limited and the ONLY restriction is that the size of code
you can
> generate for the chip is limited to 2k. However MANY of the AVR
line have a
> flash space for code of 2k or less. This means for the smaller
chips, you can
> fully program them. You can also program on the larger chips no
problem, just
> that you can not write an 8k program for an 8k space unless you pay
for
> BASCOM. However BASCOM I think is very affordable at only about $70
US, so if
> you find you like it and need more than 2k of code, it isn't a bank
breaker.
>
> Atmel sells an awesome intro developement kit, the STK-500, which
is about
> $79 US (Digi-key sells it). You can make your own programmers and
prototype
> board and Dontronics also sells a line of AVR boards and
programmers that are
> cheap and supposed to be good, but the STK-500 is really an awesome
kit for
> the price. If you don't mind spending 80 bucks, I think the STK-500
coupled
> with the free demo version of BASCOM is a great way to try out the
AVR line.
>
> When I received my STK-500 kit, I literally had small programs up
and running
> the same day! To me that made it all worth while. It usually comes
with two
> chips to play with and if you order it from Digikey, you might want
to order
> a few other chips to try out at the same time. The tried and
true '2313 is a
> good one and maybe one of the newer ones like the mega8. > > However, I think the AVR has the best compiler options. The free
GCC
> > looks promising if I can find a book or other resource that can
get
> > me going (assuming the C language doesn't change much between
> > compilers). And, if I'm in over my head, which would be likely
with
> > GCC there's BASCOM available or some other inexpensive, but
easier to
> > use, C compiler.
>
> Over at avrfreaks.com, there seems to be lots of fans of both the
free GCC
> compiler and the commercial Code Vision compiler. The latter I
believe does
> have a free demo version you can download. And like I said above, I
am a big
> fan of BASCOM. > > So, does it look like I'm going about this right? I'm not too
> > impressed with the PICBasic compiler. But I like the
capabilities of
> > the PIC itself (I2C, etc.) and the abundance of Newbie-friendly
> > projects out there.
>
> The AVR line features the same features (depending of which chips
of course)
> that the pic line carries. I2C, hardware UARTS, SPI, ADC, analog
comparitors,
> counter/timers, internal RC oscillators (if you don't want to
bother with a
> crystal), PWM, etc. are all present in various chips.
>
> And BASCOM, and I am sure the same is true for the C compilers, has
very nice
> built in commands for many hardware circuitry like LCD driving,
Maxim/Dallas
> 1Wire support, etc. etc. With a '2313 chip, I literally (on the STK-
500 board
> using BASCOM) in the hour was able to hook up a DS18B20 1Wire
temperature
> sensor, and had code running that would read the temperature from
the sensor
> and display the reading to both the RS-232 port to a terminal
program and to
> an LCD display I had hooked up. After that it was just fiddling and
fine
> tuning.
>
> Hope that helps. > =====
> Patrick Timlin ptimlin@y...
> http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/
>
> __________________________________________________
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
and through replies.
The STK500 and evaluation version of BASCOM sound like a good start.
Does the 500 come with documentation describing some starter
projects, or is it just a board and some user documentation?
Assembly language scares me to death! Without an If/then statement
I'm lost! For me "C" is pretty scary, but I know I can learn it.
But, a free but limited BASCOM is probably better for me than
starting off with a free "C" compiler because it'll at least get me
up and running and familiar with the hardware.
Any suggestions on books or websites helping the beginner get started
with the AVR? Basically, I'm trying to avoid a situation where I'm
constantly running to an electronics store because I didn't know I
needed a resistor to pull up some voltage thingy or something.
Something to tell me the parts I need and why I need them.
Thanks again! --- In avrclub@avrc..., "Patrick A. Timlin" <ptimlin@y...>
wrote:
> Well let me throw my opinion into the mix (which fairly well
mirrors the
> other responses you got so far)... > --- "danjmaclean <captainvideo@w...>" <captainvideo@w...> wrote:
> > I'm about to dive in to robotics and am looking for an MCU
platform
> > that will not only help me get started as a Newbie but also have
all
> > the power I'd need for more complex projects.
>
> As someone already pointed out, I think the "power" for hobbyist
grade
> robotics is not so high that MOST small microcontrollers on the
market that
> offer a good feature set can not handle it. When looking at the
Microchip
> (Pic) and Atmel (AVR) lines of micros, many people have done many
robotic
> projects with both lines with many different chips of various
sizes, speeds
> and capabilities, so I don't think that is going to be an issue for
you. Now
> it is a matetr of picking a line that is fairly easy to get into in
terms of
> costs, learning curve, availability of parts, etc. > > I've ruled out the BASIC Stamp and probably the Oopic because of
the
> > lack of flexibility and cost (I'd rather fry a $10 AVR or PIC by
> > mistake than an $80 OOPic or stamp).
>
> Ya, I am not sure why BASIC stamps still sell. I guess there are
some people
> who want that kind of thing, but the price is rather large for what
it is.
> Seems like someone could come up with the same sort of product
using a pic or
> an AVR chip for much cheaper. With the AVR, you can still provide a
easy to
> use BASIC language in the form of the free DEMO version of BASCOM
AVR, a
> BASIC compiler for the AVR line (there is also a BASCOM for 8051
chips BTW).
> Plus the Stamps use a BASIC interpreter while BASCOM is an actual
compiler,
> so the code would run much faster on an AVR than the BASIC Stamp's
code can
> run. > > I'm concerned that the AVR may not be available in small
quantities
>
> Digi-key carries many of the AVR line, so small quantaties is not a
problem
> thru them and they stock most of the more common AVR chips. The
AT90S2313,
> mentioned by someone else, is kind of the old standby chip for the
AVR line
> (sort of the 'F84 of the Pic line) is usually stocked with Digikey
for only a
> few dollars each. > > and maybe isn't as well documented with sample code as the PIC
is.
> > (I could be wrong).
>
> Yes and no. It is well documented and lots of projects are
available to look
> at. www.avrfreaks.com is one of the best places to start looking.
But you are
> right that the AVR line is not nearly as well represented as the
PIC line as
> far as web pages featuring products, projects, etc. as the PIC is.
But that
> is slowly changing as the AVR is gaining ground on the PIC as far
as a
> hobbyist platform is concerned. > > Also, the PIC seems specifically suited for the
> > novice, with the only real downside seeming to be speed. Any
> > comments?
>
> I think that is true if you are talking about the BASIC Stamp which
is a very
> dumbed down product that is excellent for people who want something
that is
> super simple to use, but also do not mind paying that kind of money
for what
> essentially ends up being a single PIC chip with some support
hardware around
> it.
>
> For a long while I was looking to get into SOME sort of small
microcontroller
> line to expand what I can do, both for hobby projects, and as an
electrical
> engineer. Naturally I started looking at the PIC line, specifically
at the
> 'F84 chip like most people do. But I don't really know assembly
(from other
> platforms) so learning assembly would be a steep learning curve for
me. I was
> more interested in jumping in feet first and doing something,
anything
> (flashing an LED) working quickly. At the time (it might be
different now)
> there was not a lot of free tools for the Pic and the paid ones
didn't seem
> to offer free demos to try out.
>
> So over time I never made the jump because I didn't want to invest
money or
> time into buying or making hardware only to not use it because I
didn't have
> time to dedicate to learning assembly. Eventually I learned about
the AVR
> line and found out there was a BASIC compiler called BASCOM that
had a free
> demo version you could download. The best part is the demo is full
featured
> nor time limited and the ONLY restriction is that the size of code
you can
> generate for the chip is limited to 2k. However MANY of the AVR
line have a
> flash space for code of 2k or less. This means for the smaller
chips, you can
> fully program them. You can also program on the larger chips no
problem, just
> that you can not write an 8k program for an 8k space unless you pay
for
> BASCOM. However BASCOM I think is very affordable at only about $70
US, so if
> you find you like it and need more than 2k of code, it isn't a bank
breaker.
>
> Atmel sells an awesome intro developement kit, the STK-500, which
is about
> $79 US (Digi-key sells it). You can make your own programmers and
prototype
> board and Dontronics also sells a line of AVR boards and
programmers that are
> cheap and supposed to be good, but the STK-500 is really an awesome
kit for
> the price. If you don't mind spending 80 bucks, I think the STK-500
coupled
> with the free demo version of BASCOM is a great way to try out the
AVR line.
>
> When I received my STK-500 kit, I literally had small programs up
and running
> the same day! To me that made it all worth while. It usually comes
with two
> chips to play with and if you order it from Digikey, you might want
to order
> a few other chips to try out at the same time. The tried and
true '2313 is a
> good one and maybe one of the newer ones like the mega8. > > However, I think the AVR has the best compiler options. The free
GCC
> > looks promising if I can find a book or other resource that can
get
> > me going (assuming the C language doesn't change much between
> > compilers). And, if I'm in over my head, which would be likely
with
> > GCC there's BASCOM available or some other inexpensive, but
easier to
> > use, C compiler.
>
> Over at avrfreaks.com, there seems to be lots of fans of both the
free GCC
> compiler and the commercial Code Vision compiler. The latter I
believe does
> have a free demo version you can download. And like I said above, I
am a big
> fan of BASCOM. > > So, does it look like I'm going about this right? I'm not too
> > impressed with the PICBasic compiler. But I like the
capabilities of
> > the PIC itself (I2C, etc.) and the abundance of Newbie-friendly
> > projects out there.
>
> The AVR line features the same features (depending of which chips
of course)
> that the pic line carries. I2C, hardware UARTS, SPI, ADC, analog
comparitors,
> counter/timers, internal RC oscillators (if you don't want to
bother with a
> crystal), PWM, etc. are all present in various chips.
>
> And BASCOM, and I am sure the same is true for the C compilers, has
very nice
> built in commands for many hardware circuitry like LCD driving,
Maxim/Dallas
> 1Wire support, etc. etc. With a '2313 chip, I literally (on the STK-
500 board
> using BASCOM) in the hour was able to hook up a DS18B20 1Wire
temperature
> sensor, and had code running that would read the temperature from
the sensor
> and display the reading to both the RS-232 port to a terminal
program and to
> an LCD display I had hooked up. After that it was just fiddling and
fine
> tuning.
>
> Hope that helps. > =====
> Patrick Timlin ptimlin@y...
> http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/
>
> __________________________________________________
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: [AVR club] AVR Right for newbie hobbyist? - Patrick A. Timlin - Jan 27 11:19:00 2003
--- "danjmaclean <captainvideo@capt...>" <captainvideo@capt...>
wrote:
> The STK500 and evaluation version of BASCOM sound like a good start.
> Does the 500 come with documentation describing some starter
> projects, or is it just a board and some user documentation?
The STK-500 does not come with any starter projects. Although when you get
the board, the chip installed does come with a program installed which allows
you to test the board. Also, see avrfreaks.com as they have a couple starter
tutorials about getting started with the STK-500.
BASCOM comes with a very nice library of sample programs including some for
specific types of components (LCD displays, etc). I found the one
"stk500print.bas" to be perfect for getting started. It does nothing more
that prints "Hello World" to the serial port. Bascom has a nice little built
in terminal program you can open. This one is nice because first thing you
want to do it make sure you know how to get a program into your STK500 and
make sure it is set up right. Thye jumpers on the board should come in the
right positions, but you have to plug in a 6-position ribbon cable to tie the
programming header to the chip socket header and for RS-232 you hook up a
little two wire cable from the two of the portD pins to the "RS232 Spare"
pins of the stk500. The stk500print.bas program has comments telling which
pins of port D to hook up. Anyway, both cables are included with the kit and
it is very straight forward.
The other sort of odd thing is BASCOM uses an Atmel program called stk500.exe
to do the programming of the chip. You have to install Atmel's studio
software (included with the STK500 on CD) to get this program on your hard
drive. Then you simply tell BASCOM where it is. Pretty basic, but something
that sometimes confuses the first time user. So when you use BASCOM you do
your coding, syntax check, compiles, etc. When you hit the program button (to
program the chip) the Atmel STK500.exe programmer pops up in a DOS window.
You can then erase and program the chip, then close out that window when you
are done.
OK so why I like the stk500print.bas program is that it is super simply and
you can concentrate on just making sure you can compile the code, program the
chip, and see the output on the serial port. Rather than struggling with the
actual coding part. Once you get that running, what I did while learning the
ropes was to simply build on that program add start adding things. Maybe my
next try I have the eight LEDs on the board turn on. Next run thru I add
button pushed (also on the STK500), etc. And the serial printing is nice for
debugging because you can have it say things like "Button pushed" so you can
see if your program saw the button push (useful if the LED you wanted to come
on with the button push, doesn't come on. The serial output will at least
answer the question, did my program see the button push or is my LED drive
wrong).
The last thing you want to do is get the kit, start writing some program, can
not get it to run correctly, and then spend 3 hours trying to figure it out
only to find out you didn't install the programming header ribbon cable, NOT
that your code was wrong. So running with the stk500print.bas program first
allows you to get your kit in a known good state. > But, a free but limited BASCOM is probably better for me than
> starting off with a free "C" compiler because it'll at least get me
> up and running and familiar with the hardware.
Ya that is what I loved about it. I would like to learn AVR assembly as I go
along, but BASCOM allowed me to very quickly get up and running and learning
about the chip without having the additional headache of struggling with
assembly. One nice thing about BASCOM is you can mix assembly right in with
the BASIC code, so you can ease yourself into assembly by just doing small
task with assembly as your gain experience with it, rather than having to go
all or nothing with assembly. > Any suggestions on books or websites helping the beginner get started
> with the AVR?
AVRFreaks.com is the first and foremost place to go for all kind of info. In
fact I usually go there to grab Atmel data sheets rather than going to Atmel.
Dontronics is a good place for various hardware hardware and little AVR
supported prototyping boards if you need them. I have not personally tried
any of their stuff, but they seem to have a very good reputation and decent
prices.
BASCOM has a couple mailing lists. The main one you will find a link from
from the web site you download BASCOM from. http://www.mcselec.com/
The people on there are very helpful and really good both with BASCOM and
general hardware questions.
The other mailing list is a sort of mirror to the one above, but it on Yahoo.
But does seem to get different posts. It is called "bascomlist" and can be
found at... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bascomlist/
And still another Yahoo group that is kind of like this one is AVR-Chat found
at... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AVR-Chat/
There are a few BASCOM books, but I haven't checked them out so can not
comment on how good they are. I think one or more of them actually is
concentrating on BASCOM for the 8051, but still has a lot of crossover with
BASCOM-AVR.
But I have found BASCOM itself easy to use and between AVRFreaks and the
official BASCOM mailing list, there is plenty of help and examples. > Basically, I'm trying to avoid a situation where I'm
> constantly running to an electronics store because I didn't know I
> needed a resistor to pull up some voltage thingy or something.
> Something to tell me the parts I need and why I need them.
At first you will find the STK500 will keep you busy for a week or two with
the built in buttons and leds you can interface to as well as the built in
serial port support. As far as additional hardware, I bet if you asked
around, someone could hook you up with some basic hardware to help you get
started. I certainly could provide you with various caps, resistors, sockets,
etc. to give you a little tool box of stuff. Also take advantage of free
samples. Maxim is great for free samples and you can get stuff like 1Wire
temperature sensors and stuff like that to interface to the STK500 and start
experimenting with.
After you get your STK500 and get it running, give me a shout and we'll see
what you have and what you might need and I can see if I can put a little
care package together for you. Maybe we can work it in trade. Like when you
order your STK500 and if you order a few spare AVR chips, maybe you can add
an extra mega8 (less than $5) or Tiny26 (<$3) for me and in excahnge I can
hook you up with a bag of useful parts. =====
Patrick Timlin ptimlin@ptim...
http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/
__________________________________________________
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
> The STK500 and evaluation version of BASCOM sound like a good start.
> Does the 500 come with documentation describing some starter
> projects, or is it just a board and some user documentation?
The STK-500 does not come with any starter projects. Although when you get
the board, the chip installed does come with a program installed which allows
you to test the board. Also, see avrfreaks.com as they have a couple starter
tutorials about getting started with the STK-500.
BASCOM comes with a very nice library of sample programs including some for
specific types of components (LCD displays, etc). I found the one
"stk500print.bas" to be perfect for getting started. It does nothing more
that prints "Hello World" to the serial port. Bascom has a nice little built
in terminal program you can open. This one is nice because first thing you
want to do it make sure you know how to get a program into your STK500 and
make sure it is set up right. Thye jumpers on the board should come in the
right positions, but you have to plug in a 6-position ribbon cable to tie the
programming header to the chip socket header and for RS-232 you hook up a
little two wire cable from the two of the portD pins to the "RS232 Spare"
pins of the stk500. The stk500print.bas program has comments telling which
pins of port D to hook up. Anyway, both cables are included with the kit and
it is very straight forward.
The other sort of odd thing is BASCOM uses an Atmel program called stk500.exe
to do the programming of the chip. You have to install Atmel's studio
software (included with the STK500 on CD) to get this program on your hard
drive. Then you simply tell BASCOM where it is. Pretty basic, but something
that sometimes confuses the first time user. So when you use BASCOM you do
your coding, syntax check, compiles, etc. When you hit the program button (to
program the chip) the Atmel STK500.exe programmer pops up in a DOS window.
You can then erase and program the chip, then close out that window when you
are done.
OK so why I like the stk500print.bas program is that it is super simply and
you can concentrate on just making sure you can compile the code, program the
chip, and see the output on the serial port. Rather than struggling with the
actual coding part. Once you get that running, what I did while learning the
ropes was to simply build on that program add start adding things. Maybe my
next try I have the eight LEDs on the board turn on. Next run thru I add
button pushed (also on the STK500), etc. And the serial printing is nice for
debugging because you can have it say things like "Button pushed" so you can
see if your program saw the button push (useful if the LED you wanted to come
on with the button push, doesn't come on. The serial output will at least
answer the question, did my program see the button push or is my LED drive
wrong).
The last thing you want to do is get the kit, start writing some program, can
not get it to run correctly, and then spend 3 hours trying to figure it out
only to find out you didn't install the programming header ribbon cable, NOT
that your code was wrong. So running with the stk500print.bas program first
allows you to get your kit in a known good state. > But, a free but limited BASCOM is probably better for me than
> starting off with a free "C" compiler because it'll at least get me
> up and running and familiar with the hardware.
Ya that is what I loved about it. I would like to learn AVR assembly as I go
along, but BASCOM allowed me to very quickly get up and running and learning
about the chip without having the additional headache of struggling with
assembly. One nice thing about BASCOM is you can mix assembly right in with
the BASIC code, so you can ease yourself into assembly by just doing small
task with assembly as your gain experience with it, rather than having to go
all or nothing with assembly. > Any suggestions on books or websites helping the beginner get started
> with the AVR?
AVRFreaks.com is the first and foremost place to go for all kind of info. In
fact I usually go there to grab Atmel data sheets rather than going to Atmel.
Dontronics is a good place for various hardware hardware and little AVR
supported prototyping boards if you need them. I have not personally tried
any of their stuff, but they seem to have a very good reputation and decent
prices.
BASCOM has a couple mailing lists. The main one you will find a link from
from the web site you download BASCOM from. http://www.mcselec.com/
The people on there are very helpful and really good both with BASCOM and
general hardware questions.
The other mailing list is a sort of mirror to the one above, but it on Yahoo.
But does seem to get different posts. It is called "bascomlist" and can be
found at... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bascomlist/
And still another Yahoo group that is kind of like this one is AVR-Chat found
at... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AVR-Chat/
There are a few BASCOM books, but I haven't checked them out so can not
comment on how good they are. I think one or more of them actually is
concentrating on BASCOM for the 8051, but still has a lot of crossover with
BASCOM-AVR.
But I have found BASCOM itself easy to use and between AVRFreaks and the
official BASCOM mailing list, there is plenty of help and examples. > Basically, I'm trying to avoid a situation where I'm
> constantly running to an electronics store because I didn't know I
> needed a resistor to pull up some voltage thingy or something.
> Something to tell me the parts I need and why I need them.
At first you will find the STK500 will keep you busy for a week or two with
the built in buttons and leds you can interface to as well as the built in
serial port support. As far as additional hardware, I bet if you asked
around, someone could hook you up with some basic hardware to help you get
started. I certainly could provide you with various caps, resistors, sockets,
etc. to give you a little tool box of stuff. Also take advantage of free
samples. Maxim is great for free samples and you can get stuff like 1Wire
temperature sensors and stuff like that to interface to the STK500 and start
experimenting with.
After you get your STK500 and get it running, give me a shout and we'll see
what you have and what you might need and I can see if I can put a little
care package together for you. Maybe we can work it in trade. Like when you
order your STK500 and if you order a few spare AVR chips, maybe you can add
an extra mega8 (less than $5) or Tiny26 (<$3) for me and in excahnge I can
hook you up with a bag of useful parts. =====
Patrick Timlin ptimlin@ptim...
http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/
__________________________________________________
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: [AVR club] AVR Right for newbie hobbyist? - danjmaclean - Jan 28 22:25:00 2003
Thanks! I'm probably a few weeks away from taking the plunge. But
I'll definitely be bugging you guys!
I do have another question: What's the common method of wiring
simple projects after breadboarding? Wire wrap? Custom PCB?
Ok, one more: What do vendors expect in return for "samples" and who
do they give them to? How do you ask for one?
Also, What's a bootstrap?
What's a fuse bit?
Ok, I gotta know: Most tutorials talk about a specific project or on
programming fundamentals. Has anyone created a beginner's guide to
avoiding "gotcha's"? Example: While the STK500 docs say the AVR can
run an LED directly, I read elsewhere someone using another MCU,
probably a PIC, accidentally frying his chip because he hooked it
directly to an LED w/o a resistor. How do you know? How do you know
what size resistor to use (I understand P=I*E)?
Can you fry an AVR by accidentally "testing" a lead with an ohm-meter?
Finally, a bit off topic: I read a datasheet bragging about something
like .006 degree resolution on a temperature sensor with only .5
degree accuracy? What's the point in resolution that exceeds
accuracy by so much?
Thanks again!
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
I'll definitely be bugging you guys!
I do have another question: What's the common method of wiring
simple projects after breadboarding? Wire wrap? Custom PCB?
Ok, one more: What do vendors expect in return for "samples" and who
do they give them to? How do you ask for one?
Also, What's a bootstrap?
What's a fuse bit?
Ok, I gotta know: Most tutorials talk about a specific project or on
programming fundamentals. Has anyone created a beginner's guide to
avoiding "gotcha's"? Example: While the STK500 docs say the AVR can
run an LED directly, I read elsewhere someone using another MCU,
probably a PIC, accidentally frying his chip because he hooked it
directly to an LED w/o a resistor. How do you know? How do you know
what size resistor to use (I understand P=I*E)?
Can you fry an AVR by accidentally "testing" a lead with an ohm-meter?
Finally, a bit off topic: I read a datasheet bragging about something
like .006 degree resolution on a temperature sensor with only .5
degree accuracy? What's the point in resolution that exceeds
accuracy by so much?
Thanks again!
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: [AVR club] AVR Right for newbie hobbyist? - Patrick A. Timlin - Jan 29 11:58:00 2003
Andy already covered most of your questions, but I will throw in a comment or
two...
--- "danjmaclean <captainvideo@capt...>" <captainvideo@capt...> wrote:
> I do have another question: What's the common method of wiring
> simple projects after breadboarding? Wire wrap? Custom PCB?
This is really personal preference. For small projects I usually use a piece
of perf board and solder with wires from one component to the other or use
the component leads themselves (if they are long enough, like with resistors)
as wires. Kind of messy, but I can get the job done fairly quick.
Some people like to make PCBs. One way is using photosensitve copper clad
board, exposure your design on it, then etch the board in a pad with the
proper chemicals.
Or if you learn to use a computer layout program, you can have REAL boards
made by a number of companies that do prototype and small qty runs for very
affordable prices. For larger designs, or designs you may want to share PCBs
with others, this might be the best choice.
But for little things, I tend to use either hand wired/soldered perfboards,
or I use a lot of clip leads with my STK-500 developement board and have
components laying on the table with leads connecting them to the STK-500, or
when possibly, plugged into the expansion connector or one of the free
sockets on the STK-500. > Ok, one more: What do vendors expect in return for "samples" and who
> do they give them to? How do you ask for one?
Depends on the vendor and what you are getting. For Maxim/Dallas parts,
requesting samples is very easy. Just find the part number you are interested
in on their web site. When you get to the summary page, somewhere near the
bottom is a URL to order samples or the part you are looking at. And Maxim
never bothers you afterwords with phoen calls or emails.
Other companies may add you to their mailing list, sometimes a local
representative or distributor of that company's products might call you
(typical if you are ordering samples from work) to see what you are working
on, if they can get you anything else, can they come by and give you a
catalog, etc.
For hobbyist, some companies might not want to give you samples. But it never
hurts to ask. If they do give you a sample and someone does a follow up
contact, simply explain you are a hobbyist learning, and just wanted to try
out the part. They surely won't bug you again since you are not a potential
big sale or client, but they are not going to get upset or anything either.
After all, hobbyists or evne engineers like me who get a sample for a
personal one time project, might end up needing something for a real product
or project later, so their is always that potential as far as some of these
companies are concerned. > Ok, I gotta know: Most tutorials talk about a specific project or on
> programming fundamentals. Has anyone created a beginner's guide to
> avoiding "gotcha's"? Example: While the STK500 docs say the AVR can
> run an LED directly, I read elsewhere someone using another MCU,
> probably a PIC, accidentally frying his chip because he hooked it
> directly to an LED w/o a resistor. How do you know? How do you know
> what size resistor to use (I understand P=I*E)?
OK with respect to LEDs, two issues. First the AVR notes stating that the
chip can drive LEDs directly is probably more correctly stated "can drive LED
CIRCUITS directly" which would be an LED and resistor, but by saying LED
directly it is sort of assumed you understand LEDs and that a resistor is
typically required as well. This statement is just to tell you that the ports
can handle enough current (say 10's of milliamps) to drive an LED circuit
directly where as many older processors didn't have a lot of drive ability,
so their output could only drive a few milliamps, plenty to drive a logic
gate or a transistor which in turn could activate the LED, but not enough to
drive an LED directly, at least not very brightly. So the statement really is
jsut telling you that the outputs of the AVR are able to drive higher current
loads directly rather than having to be buffered somehow before the load.
The second thing is all you really have to remember is that LEDs are current
devices. All you need to do is limit the current to something that is safe
for the LED (and of course can be handles by the electronics activating the
LED). The actual current is not really critical in most cases and ballpartk
numbers are fine. Of course, lower current gives a lower (dimmer) output
while higher current will drive the LED brighter. So you look at the data
sheet and you should see a maximum current rating for the LED. You definately
do not want to exceed this rating, and most of the time you want to be below
it by some margin.
So for example, you might have an LED that gives an absolute maximum rating
of 50mA. This means you can drive it with any current from a couple mA (very
dim) to 50mA (put on your sun glasses). But most of the time we just want a
simple indicator and also often we don't want to waste a lot of our current
budget on a project on LEDs. So you might drive it at 5mA-20mA which is
probably fine for most purposes. In fact, MOST common LEDs you find can
pretty much all be safely run in this region, so if you found an LED in a
junk box, if you wired it into a circuit and ran it with 10mA without having
the data sheet, you are probably fine.
To calculate the resistor, it is simply ohm's law V = IR so to get the
resitance, it is R = V/I. Now the LED itself is going to drop some voltage.
It usually depends on the color of the LED, but a rough rule of thumb is
assume about 2V across the LED. So for an LED you are going to drive with 5V
and want about 10mA of current, assuming about 2V drop on the LED itself,
your resistor should be around (5-2)V/10mA = 3V/10mA = 300 ohms. So just hook
up a resistor that is in the ballpark (with standard values, you may find a
330ohm resistor or a 270 ohm resistor. Either one is fine. The 330 will drive
the LED a tad dimmer while the 270ohm one will be a tad brighter.
I usually do not even bother with the LED voltage drop (since many times I am
not even sure what it is and I don't need precision control of the LED
brightness) which gives me a little safety margin. In other words, if I have
an LED I want to run at roughly 10mA, then for a 5V system I just do 5V/10mA.
For a 12V system, 12V/10mA. Sure I will be off, but the actual current will
be lower with the resistor I use so not a big deal. In other words, 5V/10mA
gives me 500 ohms. In the real circuit, 500ohms will give me a current in the
LED of (5-2)/500 = 3V/500ohms = 6mA. Close enough. For larger voltages the
difference becomes even less (e.g. 24V system, I calculate 2400 ohms for 10mA
when ignoring the LED drop. Actual current will be 9.2mA.). > Can you fry an AVR by accidentally "testing" a lead with an ohm-meter?
Generally you should be ok. However you can accidentally do bad things. For
example, to do a current mearurement, you put the meter in current mode and
often have to plug the red lead into a different jack. The meter goes inline
with what you are measuring (the meter is like a wire you add into the
circuit so you can see the current as it travels thru and to the load), so it
is a short circuit. A common mistake would be to do a current measurement.
Then you remove the meter and hook the circuit back up directly to the AVR. A
few minutes later you want to do a voltage measurement. You have forgotten to
reconfigure you meter back to voltage mode. You put the black lead on a
ground pin of your circuit and the red lead on an AVR output. Since the meter
is still left in current mode, this is short circuiting the output to ground.
So you MIGHT damage the chip by shorting it and causing excessive current. > Finally, a bit off topic: I read a datasheet bragging about something
> like .006 degree resolution on a temperature sensor with only .5
> degree accuracy? What's the point in resolution that exceeds
> accuracy by so much?
As Andy already pointed out, but I will try my own spin on it, accuracy is
how close to the real temperature you really are. Where as resolution is how
many decimal places out you can see and how small of a change you can see. So
if your temp sensor has an accuracy of +/- a half degree, then your reading
should be within a half degree of the real temp. So if the real temp is
24.5C, then your sensor might read 24.875 for example. This is within a half
degree. But when the actual temp drops from 24.5 to 24.25, your sensor should
drop from 24.875 to 24.625. So you are still, in this case, reading .375 too
high, but you were able to see a 0.25 change in the temperature. Usually, we
hope, your sensor is off about the same thru the scale. In other words, if it
is off .375 too high, it should be that much too high thru some range, say
0-80C or something. So you can calibrate out your circuit to make your
reading match the real temperature, fixing the accuracy. But the 0.006
resolution means when the actual temp changes by at least 0.006, your sensor
should change by that much too. Does that make sense? =====
Patrick Timlin ptimlin@ptim...
http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/
__________________________________________________
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
two...
--- "danjmaclean <captainvideo@capt...>" <captainvideo@capt...> wrote:
> I do have another question: What's the common method of wiring
> simple projects after breadboarding? Wire wrap? Custom PCB?
This is really personal preference. For small projects I usually use a piece
of perf board and solder with wires from one component to the other or use
the component leads themselves (if they are long enough, like with resistors)
as wires. Kind of messy, but I can get the job done fairly quick.
Some people like to make PCBs. One way is using photosensitve copper clad
board, exposure your design on it, then etch the board in a pad with the
proper chemicals.
Or if you learn to use a computer layout program, you can have REAL boards
made by a number of companies that do prototype and small qty runs for very
affordable prices. For larger designs, or designs you may want to share PCBs
with others, this might be the best choice.
But for little things, I tend to use either hand wired/soldered perfboards,
or I use a lot of clip leads with my STK-500 developement board and have
components laying on the table with leads connecting them to the STK-500, or
when possibly, plugged into the expansion connector or one of the free
sockets on the STK-500. > Ok, one more: What do vendors expect in return for "samples" and who
> do they give them to? How do you ask for one?
Depends on the vendor and what you are getting. For Maxim/Dallas parts,
requesting samples is very easy. Just find the part number you are interested
in on their web site. When you get to the summary page, somewhere near the
bottom is a URL to order samples or the part you are looking at. And Maxim
never bothers you afterwords with phoen calls or emails.
Other companies may add you to their mailing list, sometimes a local
representative or distributor of that company's products might call you
(typical if you are ordering samples from work) to see what you are working
on, if they can get you anything else, can they come by and give you a
catalog, etc.
For hobbyist, some companies might not want to give you samples. But it never
hurts to ask. If they do give you a sample and someone does a follow up
contact, simply explain you are a hobbyist learning, and just wanted to try
out the part. They surely won't bug you again since you are not a potential
big sale or client, but they are not going to get upset or anything either.
After all, hobbyists or evne engineers like me who get a sample for a
personal one time project, might end up needing something for a real product
or project later, so their is always that potential as far as some of these
companies are concerned. > Ok, I gotta know: Most tutorials talk about a specific project or on
> programming fundamentals. Has anyone created a beginner's guide to
> avoiding "gotcha's"? Example: While the STK500 docs say the AVR can
> run an LED directly, I read elsewhere someone using another MCU,
> probably a PIC, accidentally frying his chip because he hooked it
> directly to an LED w/o a resistor. How do you know? How do you know
> what size resistor to use (I understand P=I*E)?
OK with respect to LEDs, two issues. First the AVR notes stating that the
chip can drive LEDs directly is probably more correctly stated "can drive LED
CIRCUITS directly" which would be an LED and resistor, but by saying LED
directly it is sort of assumed you understand LEDs and that a resistor is
typically required as well. This statement is just to tell you that the ports
can handle enough current (say 10's of milliamps) to drive an LED circuit
directly where as many older processors didn't have a lot of drive ability,
so their output could only drive a few milliamps, plenty to drive a logic
gate or a transistor which in turn could activate the LED, but not enough to
drive an LED directly, at least not very brightly. So the statement really is
jsut telling you that the outputs of the AVR are able to drive higher current
loads directly rather than having to be buffered somehow before the load.
The second thing is all you really have to remember is that LEDs are current
devices. All you need to do is limit the current to something that is safe
for the LED (and of course can be handles by the electronics activating the
LED). The actual current is not really critical in most cases and ballpartk
numbers are fine. Of course, lower current gives a lower (dimmer) output
while higher current will drive the LED brighter. So you look at the data
sheet and you should see a maximum current rating for the LED. You definately
do not want to exceed this rating, and most of the time you want to be below
it by some margin.
So for example, you might have an LED that gives an absolute maximum rating
of 50mA. This means you can drive it with any current from a couple mA (very
dim) to 50mA (put on your sun glasses). But most of the time we just want a
simple indicator and also often we don't want to waste a lot of our current
budget on a project on LEDs. So you might drive it at 5mA-20mA which is
probably fine for most purposes. In fact, MOST common LEDs you find can
pretty much all be safely run in this region, so if you found an LED in a
junk box, if you wired it into a circuit and ran it with 10mA without having
the data sheet, you are probably fine.
To calculate the resistor, it is simply ohm's law V = IR so to get the
resitance, it is R = V/I. Now the LED itself is going to drop some voltage.
It usually depends on the color of the LED, but a rough rule of thumb is
assume about 2V across the LED. So for an LED you are going to drive with 5V
and want about 10mA of current, assuming about 2V drop on the LED itself,
your resistor should be around (5-2)V/10mA = 3V/10mA = 300 ohms. So just hook
up a resistor that is in the ballpark (with standard values, you may find a
330ohm resistor or a 270 ohm resistor. Either one is fine. The 330 will drive
the LED a tad dimmer while the 270ohm one will be a tad brighter.
I usually do not even bother with the LED voltage drop (since many times I am
not even sure what it is and I don't need precision control of the LED
brightness) which gives me a little safety margin. In other words, if I have
an LED I want to run at roughly 10mA, then for a 5V system I just do 5V/10mA.
For a 12V system, 12V/10mA. Sure I will be off, but the actual current will
be lower with the resistor I use so not a big deal. In other words, 5V/10mA
gives me 500 ohms. In the real circuit, 500ohms will give me a current in the
LED of (5-2)/500 = 3V/500ohms = 6mA. Close enough. For larger voltages the
difference becomes even less (e.g. 24V system, I calculate 2400 ohms for 10mA
when ignoring the LED drop. Actual current will be 9.2mA.). > Can you fry an AVR by accidentally "testing" a lead with an ohm-meter?
Generally you should be ok. However you can accidentally do bad things. For
example, to do a current mearurement, you put the meter in current mode and
often have to plug the red lead into a different jack. The meter goes inline
with what you are measuring (the meter is like a wire you add into the
circuit so you can see the current as it travels thru and to the load), so it
is a short circuit. A common mistake would be to do a current measurement.
Then you remove the meter and hook the circuit back up directly to the AVR. A
few minutes later you want to do a voltage measurement. You have forgotten to
reconfigure you meter back to voltage mode. You put the black lead on a
ground pin of your circuit and the red lead on an AVR output. Since the meter
is still left in current mode, this is short circuiting the output to ground.
So you MIGHT damage the chip by shorting it and causing excessive current. > Finally, a bit off topic: I read a datasheet bragging about something
> like .006 degree resolution on a temperature sensor with only .5
> degree accuracy? What's the point in resolution that exceeds
> accuracy by so much?
As Andy already pointed out, but I will try my own spin on it, accuracy is
how close to the real temperature you really are. Where as resolution is how
many decimal places out you can see and how small of a change you can see. So
if your temp sensor has an accuracy of +/- a half degree, then your reading
should be within a half degree of the real temp. So if the real temp is
24.5C, then your sensor might read 24.875 for example. This is within a half
degree. But when the actual temp drops from 24.5 to 24.25, your sensor should
drop from 24.875 to 24.625. So you are still, in this case, reading .375 too
high, but you were able to see a 0.25 change in the temperature. Usually, we
hope, your sensor is off about the same thru the scale. In other words, if it
is off .375 too high, it should be that much too high thru some range, say
0-80C or something. So you can calibrate out your circuit to make your
reading match the real temperature, fixing the accuracy. But the 0.006
resolution means when the actual temp changes by at least 0.006, your sensor
should change by that much too. Does that make sense? =====
Patrick Timlin ptimlin@ptim...
http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/
__________________________________________________
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
RE: [AVR club] AVR Right for newbie hobbyist? - Dan Thames - Jan 29 19:55:00 2003
From these questions and some of your previous questions, I can tell you
that you will be miles (or kilometers) ahead if you gain a good basic
understanding of electronics. You were talking about the LEDs and
frying a port on a chip. If you looked at the chip's datasheet and it
said it could sink 20mAmps and you understood how to limit the current
on an LED, it is a fairly simple matter to understand where you will get
into problems. Several years ago Radio Shack had a very good book about
basic electronics. It was written in simple terms that almost everyone
could understand. I don't know if it is still available or not.
About projects, I do a lot of wire wrap. I currently have 3 wire wrap
board with Atmel chips on them. I have a water pump controller that is
wire wrap and has been running my water system for my house, for more
than 7 years, I think. It has an old Motorola 68ch11.
Dan Thames -----Original Message-----
From: danjmaclean <captainvideo@capt...>
[mailto:captainvideo@capt...]
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 8:26 PM
To: avrclub@avrc...
Subject: Re: [AVR club] AVR Right for newbie hobbyist?
Thanks! I'm probably a few weeks away from taking the plunge. But
I'll definitely be bugging you guys!
I do have another question: What's the common method of wiring
simple projects after breadboarding? Wire wrap? Custom PCB?
Ok, one more: What do vendors expect in return for "samples" and who
do they give them to? How do you ask for one?
Also, What's a bootstrap?
What's a fuse bit?
Ok, I gotta know: Most tutorials talk about a specific project or on
programming fundamentals. Has anyone created a beginner's guide to
avoiding "gotcha's"? Example: While the STK500 docs say the AVR can
run an LED directly, I read elsewhere someone using another MCU,
probably a PIC, accidentally frying his chip because he hooked it
directly to an LED w/o a resistor. How do you know? How do you know
what size resistor to use (I understand P=I*E)?
Can you fry an AVR by accidentally "testing" a lead with an ohm-meter?
Finally, a bit off topic: I read a datasheet bragging about something
like .006 degree resolution on a temperature sensor with only .5
degree accuracy? What's the point in resolution that exceeds
accuracy by so much?
Thanks again!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
that you will be miles (or kilometers) ahead if you gain a good basic
understanding of electronics. You were talking about the LEDs and
frying a port on a chip. If you looked at the chip's datasheet and it
said it could sink 20mAmps and you understood how to limit the current
on an LED, it is a fairly simple matter to understand where you will get
into problems. Several years ago Radio Shack had a very good book about
basic electronics. It was written in simple terms that almost everyone
could understand. I don't know if it is still available or not.
About projects, I do a lot of wire wrap. I currently have 3 wire wrap
board with Atmel chips on them. I have a water pump controller that is
wire wrap and has been running my water system for my house, for more
than 7 years, I think. It has an old Motorola 68ch11.
Dan Thames -----Original Message-----
From: danjmaclean <captainvideo@capt...>
[mailto:captainvideo@capt...]
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 8:26 PM
To: avrclub@avrc...
Subject: Re: [AVR club] AVR Right for newbie hobbyist?
Thanks! I'm probably a few weeks away from taking the plunge. But
I'll definitely be bugging you guys!
I do have another question: What's the common method of wiring
simple projects after breadboarding? Wire wrap? Custom PCB?
Ok, one more: What do vendors expect in return for "samples" and who
do they give them to? How do you ask for one?
Also, What's a bootstrap?
What's a fuse bit?
Ok, I gotta know: Most tutorials talk about a specific project or on
programming fundamentals. Has anyone created a beginner's guide to
avoiding "gotcha's"? Example: While the STK500 docs say the AVR can
run an LED directly, I read elsewhere someone using another MCU,
probably a PIC, accidentally frying his chip because he hooked it
directly to an LED w/o a resistor. How do you know? How do you know
what size resistor to use (I understand P=I*E)?
Can you fry an AVR by accidentally "testing" a lead with an ohm-meter?
Finally, a bit off topic: I read a datasheet bragging about something
like .006 degree resolution on a temperature sensor with only .5
degree accuracy? What's the point in resolution that exceeds
accuracy by so much?
Thanks again!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: [AVR club] AVR Right for newbie hobbyist? - ASMiyakawa - Jan 30 2:35:00 2003
Sorry I forgot to comment on prototyping.
I too use wirewrap and have done so for 20+ years. I have devices
that are more than 15 years old still working reliably (even though
the wire is tarnished and black).
Buy the best tools you can afford. Cheap tools like those offered at
Radio Shack take more care to produce good wraps (no overlap, proper
insulation wrap). OK Machine make a hand tool that Digikey sells for
about $22 that works better. You want the tool specified to make
modified wraps.
Even better, I have the bit and sleeve that was used in the power
wrap tool but instead stuffed into the drilled out end of a former
VOM probe. The probe handle is round and makes spinning the tool
easy. Note that the Digikey version would cost $65 for the tools and
you would have to do the mount yourself.
Buy multiple colors of wires. Tracing those little wires if all the
same color is a real pain. I use different colors for power and gnd,
and multiple colors for signals in complex designs.
Use sharp strippers. Dull ones leave a burr on the end of the wire
and make stripping harder, much harder. Flush cutting diagonal
cutters are just fine. Regular diags leave the end of the wire
smashed.
No matter what the temptation, do not rewrap a wire. Replace it. The
old kinks, even if carefully smoothed, will jam and/or break.
The sockets are the expensive part. You can (I do) recycle sockets.
Avoid temtation to wrap on round leads of components. Wirewrap's good
connections come from the sharp edges on the square posts. OK... I do
it but only for very temporary tests. If I do it, I always solder the
wrap to the lead before considering a prototype acceptable for
general use. By the way, LED leads are NOT proper wirewrap posts so
treat them like round leads (their corners are not sharp enough).
I do use ribbon cable to connect my wirewrap designs to the outside
world. The connectors with .025 sq pins are wirewrap compatible.
As a matter of personal preference, I use prototype board without any
copper. I always seem to run into the copper at the wrong time.
You can get some documentation on the proper use of wirewrap from the
Gardner-Denver company. They managed to get it certified for Apollo
moon missions by NASA so properly done it is very secure. They are
the originators of wirewrap somehow in conjunction with Bell Labs
(now Lucent Tech but not the same... sigh) and own the patents.
Hope this helps you if you decide to wirewrap. Good luck.
Andy
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
I too use wirewrap and have done so for 20+ years. I have devices
that are more than 15 years old still working reliably (even though
the wire is tarnished and black).
Buy the best tools you can afford. Cheap tools like those offered at
Radio Shack take more care to produce good wraps (no overlap, proper
insulation wrap). OK Machine make a hand tool that Digikey sells for
about $22 that works better. You want the tool specified to make
modified wraps.
Even better, I have the bit and sleeve that was used in the power
wrap tool but instead stuffed into the drilled out end of a former
VOM probe. The probe handle is round and makes spinning the tool
easy. Note that the Digikey version would cost $65 for the tools and
you would have to do the mount yourself.
Buy multiple colors of wires. Tracing those little wires if all the
same color is a real pain. I use different colors for power and gnd,
and multiple colors for signals in complex designs.
Use sharp strippers. Dull ones leave a burr on the end of the wire
and make stripping harder, much harder. Flush cutting diagonal
cutters are just fine. Regular diags leave the end of the wire
smashed.
No matter what the temptation, do not rewrap a wire. Replace it. The
old kinks, even if carefully smoothed, will jam and/or break.
The sockets are the expensive part. You can (I do) recycle sockets.
Avoid temtation to wrap on round leads of components. Wirewrap's good
connections come from the sharp edges on the square posts. OK... I do
it but only for very temporary tests. If I do it, I always solder the
wrap to the lead before considering a prototype acceptable for
general use. By the way, LED leads are NOT proper wirewrap posts so
treat them like round leads (their corners are not sharp enough).
I do use ribbon cable to connect my wirewrap designs to the outside
world. The connectors with .025 sq pins are wirewrap compatible.
As a matter of personal preference, I use prototype board without any
copper. I always seem to run into the copper at the wrong time.
You can get some documentation on the proper use of wirewrap from the
Gardner-Denver company. They managed to get it certified for Apollo
moon missions by NASA so properly done it is very secure. They are
the originators of wirewrap somehow in conjunction with Bell Labs
(now Lucent Tech but not the same... sigh) and own the patents.
Hope this helps you if you decide to wirewrap. Good luck.
Andy
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: What to do after breadboarding (was AVR Right for newbie hobbyist?) - poitsplace - Jan 30 4:05:00 2003
--- In avrclub@avrc..., "ASMiyakawa <villagplhs@a...>"
<villagplhs@a...> wrote:
> Sorry I forgot to comment on prototyping.
>
> I too use wirewrap and have done so for 20+ years. I have devices
> that are more than 15 years old still working reliably (even though
> the wire is tarnished and black).
I prefer to just use the copier toner method of circuit board
etching...and of course...throw in a patch of extra pads on the
board...just in case I've screwed up somehow with one of the minor
bits (Sort of like this board http://www.extremecooling.org/pcb.jpg :)
To make the board I used Express PCB ( http://www.expresspcb.com ).
Now I should point out that Express PCB has a really annoying habbit
of coloring or shading your board...making the printout's useless.
LUCKILY they didn't give a lot of thought to how they did the
shading. If you drag the lower right boundary of the PCB to the
upper right, you essentially define an L shaped board with NO SURFACE
AREA AT ALL! Anyway, it will print out your circuit...still has
those stupid dots, but they're relatively easy to work around.
Anyway, print out your board art (mirrored...many current printers
have this option...or you can do it with a photocopier) and make a
photocopy with a XEROGRAPHIC COPIER (like they have at kinkos)
onto...and this is the important part..."Coated" inkjet paper. This
is basically paper with a powder embedded in the surface to quickly
absorb the ink and give it a nice finish.
Then scrub your unetched copper clad board with a scothbrite pad or
some really fine sandpaper, then wash it off with a paper towel and
some alcohol (gets rid of greasy fingerprints). After your board is
clean, you can trim your photocopy down to size, place it face down
on the copper surface of the board and cover it with a couple sheets
of paper.
Now...whip out your iron, set it on HIGH and once it's heated up,
iron the PCB/paper. Since the toner from xerographic copiers (and
true laser printers) is basically made of plastic, it will melt and
stick to the board.
After ironing, let the board cool and toss the board (paper and all)
into some hot tap water. The coating from the coated inkjet paper
will disintegrate...leaving the coating (and the plastic
toner...which resists etching) on the board. Almost any paper that
says "coated inkjet paper" will work. (I've tried several brands.
Office max's store brand worked well...cost $10 for 100 sheets, but
you can find coated inkjet paper for a lot less)
All you have to do now is etch the board, scrub off the toner
(scotchrite again) and drill out all the holes. You can get a LOT of
detail with this method. If you're careful and use elongated (but
more narrow) pads, you can actually run 2 traces between standard .1
inch DIP pins
one last important part...you don't REALLY have to drill all those
holes. With only a small amount of practice (and some flux helps)
you can surface mount almost everything. You'll find that most chip
sockets can easily be adapted by simply bending the pins (make sure
to use wider pads though since the only thing holding the socket on
will be the glue holding on the pads) and that most discrete
components just need to be bent like normal..but with the leads cut
short.
Hope this was helpful
______________________________
controlSUITE™ software. Comprehensive. Intuitive. Optimized.
Real-world software for real-time control. Details Here!
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
<villagplhs@a...> wrote:
> Sorry I forgot to comment on prototyping.
>
> I too use wirewrap and have done so for 20+ years. I have devices
> that are more than 15 years old still working reliably (even though
> the wire is tarnished and black).
I prefer to just use the copier toner method of circuit board
etching...and of course...throw in a patch of extra pads on the
board...just in case I've screwed up somehow with one of the minor
bits (Sort of like this board http://www.extremecooling.org/pcb.jpg :)
To make the board I used Express PCB ( http://www.expresspcb.com ).
Now I should point out that Express PCB has a really annoying habbit
of coloring or shading your board...making the printout's useless.
LUCKILY they didn't give a lot of thought to how they did the
shading. If you drag the lower right boundary of the PCB to the
upper right, you essentially define an L shaped board with NO SURFACE
AREA AT ALL! Anyway, it will print out your circuit...still has
those stupid dots, but they're relatively easy to work around.
Anyway, print out your board art (mirrored...many current printers
have this option...or you can do it with a photocopier) and make a
photocopy with a XEROGRAPHIC COPIER (like they have at kinkos)
onto...and this is the important part..."Coated" inkjet paper. This
is basically paper with a powder embedded in the surface to quickly
absorb the ink and give it a nice finish.
Then scrub your unetched copper clad board with a scothbrite pad or
some really fine sandpaper, then wash it off with a paper towel and
some alcohol (gets rid of greasy fingerprints). After your board is
clean, you can trim your photocopy down to size, place it face down
on the copper surface of the board and cover it with a couple sheets
of paper.
Now...whip out your iron, set it on HIGH and once it's heated up,
iron the PCB/paper. Since the toner from xerographic copiers (and
true laser printers) is basically made of plastic, it will melt and
stick to the board.
After ironing, let the board cool and toss the board (paper and all)
into some hot tap water. The coating from the coated inkjet paper
will disintegrate...leaving the coating (and the plastic
toner...which resists etching) on the board. Almost any paper that
says "coated inkjet paper" will work. (I've tried several brands.
Office max's store brand worked well...cost $10 for 100 sheets, but
you can find coated inkjet paper for a lot less)
All you have to do now is etch the board, scrub off the toner
(scotchrite again) and drill out all the holes. You can get a LOT of
detail with this method. If you're careful and use elongated (but
more narrow) pads, you can actually run 2 traces between standard .1
inch DIP pins
one last important part...you don't REALLY have to drill all those
holes. With only a small amount of practice (and some flux helps)
you can surface mount almost everything. You'll find that most chip
sockets can easily be adapted by simply bending the pins (make sure
to use wider pads though since the only thing holding the socket on
will be the glue holding on the pads) and that most discrete
components just need to be bent like normal..but with the leads cut
short.
Hope this was helpful
______________________________
controlSUITE™ software. Comprehensive. Intuitive. Optimized.
Real-world software for real-time control. Details Here!
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
PhotoEtching PCBs (was: What to do after breadboarding) - Patrick A. Timlin - Jan 30 11:23:00 2003
--- "poitsplace <lmburt@lmbu...>" <lmburt@lmbu...> wrote:
> I prefer to just use the copier toner method of circuit board
> etching...and of course...throw in a patch of extra pads on the
> board...just in case I've screwed up somehow with one of the minor
> bits (Sort of like this board http://www.extremecooling.org/pcb.jpg :)
>
> To make the board I used Express PCB ( http://www.expresspcb.com ).
While looking at a bunch of PCB layout tools, I ran across one made for
making photo etch boards. I was looking for a program that was stupid simple
to use but could create gerber files to get boards professionally made.
Problem with most of the layout tools, is they are rather involved and take a
bit of learning, where as I wanted something I would manually do a board
(e.g. place a 16-dip down, add a 0.1 lead spacing cap, add a wire trace,
etc.).
Anyway, the photo etch program is called "PCB Designer" (yes very unique and
original) and while it does not make Gerbers, I did play with it a bit and it
looks, as I said above, stupid simple to use. You can check out a demo
version of it from their web site...
http://www.niche.co.uk/
The demo will not let you do print outs, which is of course what you need as
the final step of the program to start making your boards. I also think the
pgogram is a bit too pricey for what it is, £49 (about $77US). However, if
you tend to make a LOT of photo etch boards, then this tool might be perfect
for you and well worth the money.
I have used the Express PCBs program and this PCB Designer works pretty much
the same way where you just pick and place component, pads, wires, etc.
without having to have a schematic or netlist or stuff like that first. I
never thought of using Express PCB for photo etching though. Good thought and
maybe I will try taking up photo etching myself and using PCB Express. I
tried photo etching once about 10 years ago, it worked ok, but I was using
those stick on pads and wires along with a sharpie. I don't think it was a
very good kit.
Anyone have a good suggestion for a good layout program to make gerber files
that is not hard to use? I might just bite the bullet and spend time learning
how to use Eagle (which is totally free for personal use), but I wanted
something more like the PCB Express program since my layouts would generally
be small and easy enough for manual layout and you can start laying out a
board on PCB Express the first time you use it in mere minutes. Unfortunately
PCB Express is a proprietary program for PCB Express for getting them to make
boards for you, so it doesn't make standard Gerbers. As nice as this tool is,
PCB Express's board prices are not that great, from a hobbyist standpoint.
They are not bad, but with standard gerber files you can get better pricing
elsewhere.
Another one that I found that looks very promising is Circuit Layout (another
unique and original name <wink>) which can be found at
http://members.aol.com/atPCLogic/
but its demo version won't let you save your design. There is a Lite version
of just the layout tool which is only about $25 or so, so that isn't too bad.
I have played around with it a bit and it looks very simply to do quick
layouts. So it is a definate front runner if I decide to skip Eagle. =====
Patrick Timlin ptimlin@ptim...
http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/
__________________________________________________
______________________________
controlSUITE™ software. Comprehensive. Intuitive. Optimized.
Real-world software for real-time control. Details Here!
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
> I prefer to just use the copier toner method of circuit board
> etching...and of course...throw in a patch of extra pads on the
> board...just in case I've screwed up somehow with one of the minor
> bits (Sort of like this board http://www.extremecooling.org/pcb.jpg :)
>
> To make the board I used Express PCB ( http://www.expresspcb.com ).
While looking at a bunch of PCB layout tools, I ran across one made for
making photo etch boards. I was looking for a program that was stupid simple
to use but could create gerber files to get boards professionally made.
Problem with most of the layout tools, is they are rather involved and take a
bit of learning, where as I wanted something I would manually do a board
(e.g. place a 16-dip down, add a 0.1 lead spacing cap, add a wire trace,
etc.).
Anyway, the photo etch program is called "PCB Designer" (yes very unique and
original) and while it does not make Gerbers, I did play with it a bit and it
looks, as I said above, stupid simple to use. You can check out a demo
version of it from their web site...
http://www.niche.co.uk/
The demo will not let you do print outs, which is of course what you need as
the final step of the program to start making your boards. I also think the
pgogram is a bit too pricey for what it is, £49 (about $77US). However, if
you tend to make a LOT of photo etch boards, then this tool might be perfect
for you and well worth the money.
I have used the Express PCBs program and this PCB Designer works pretty much
the same way where you just pick and place component, pads, wires, etc.
without having to have a schematic or netlist or stuff like that first. I
never thought of using Express PCB for photo etching though. Good thought and
maybe I will try taking up photo etching myself and using PCB Express. I
tried photo etching once about 10 years ago, it worked ok, but I was using
those stick on pads and wires along with a sharpie. I don't think it was a
very good kit.
Anyone have a good suggestion for a good layout program to make gerber files
that is not hard to use? I might just bite the bullet and spend time learning
how to use Eagle (which is totally free for personal use), but I wanted
something more like the PCB Express program since my layouts would generally
be small and easy enough for manual layout and you can start laying out a
board on PCB Express the first time you use it in mere minutes. Unfortunately
PCB Express is a proprietary program for PCB Express for getting them to make
boards for you, so it doesn't make standard Gerbers. As nice as this tool is,
PCB Express's board prices are not that great, from a hobbyist standpoint.
They are not bad, but with standard gerber files you can get better pricing
elsewhere.
Another one that I found that looks very promising is Circuit Layout (another
unique and original name <wink>) which can be found at
http://members.aol.com/atPCLogic/
but its demo version won't let you save your design. There is a Lite version
of just the layout tool which is only about $25 or so, so that isn't too bad.
I have played around with it a bit and it looks very simply to do quick
layouts. So it is a definate front runner if I decide to skip Eagle. =====
Patrick Timlin ptimlin@ptim...
http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/
__________________________________________________
______________________________
controlSUITE™ software. Comprehensive. Intuitive. Optimized.
Real-world software for real-time control. Details Here!
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: PhotoEtching PCBs (was: What to do after breadboarding) - danjmaclean - Jan 30 21:27:00 2003
Holy cow, that's a lot of info! Thanks! The etching/ironing sounds
pretty involved. But I think I'd like to try it one day.
My problem, I think, isn't so much lack of knowledge but laziness.
Not only did I not want to bother reading that horribly long
datasheet but, once I read you can drive LED's (understandably wrong,
but it DID set off a red flag for me), I didn't want to bother
checking my math either. Just plug 'em in and if it keeps working I
must have been right;)
In fact, it is this laziness above anything else that pushed me to
the AVR over the OOPic and Stamp. I knew I'd get reckless and fry a
few things. I think I wrote it before: I'd rather fry an $8 AVR
than an $80 Stamp.
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
pretty involved. But I think I'd like to try it one day.
My problem, I think, isn't so much lack of knowledge but laziness.
Not only did I not want to bother reading that horribly long
datasheet but, once I read you can drive LED's (understandably wrong,
but it DID set off a red flag for me), I didn't want to bother
checking my math either. Just plug 'em in and if it keeps working I
must have been right;)
In fact, it is this laziness above anything else that pushed me to
the AVR over the OOPic and Stamp. I knew I'd get reckless and fry a
few things. I think I wrote it before: I'd rather fry an $8 AVR
than an $80 Stamp.
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: PhotoEtching PCBs (was: What to do after breadboarding) - poitsplace - Jan 31 3:55:00 2003
--- In avrclub@avrc..., "Patrick A. Timlin" <ptimlin@y...>
wrote:
> The demo will not let you do print outs, which is of course what
> you need as the final step of the program to start making your
> boards. I also think the pgogram is a bit too pricey for what it
> is, £49 (about $77US). However, if you tend to make a LOT of
> photo etch boards, then this tool might be perfect for you and
> well worth the money.
For small boards, you can just zoom in until the schematic covers the
entire screen...then get a screen capture (making sure you have some
indicators on the PCB layout to tell you where the edges of the board
are...then simply paste the picture into your favorite word processor
and size it there. PRESTO...a print feature :)
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
wrote:
> The demo will not let you do print outs, which is of course what
> you need as the final step of the program to start making your
> boards. I also think the pgogram is a bit too pricey for what it
> is, £49 (about $77US). However, if you tend to make a LOT of
> photo etch boards, then this tool might be perfect for you and
> well worth the money.
For small boards, you can just zoom in until the schematic covers the
entire screen...then get a screen capture (making sure you have some
indicators on the PCB layout to tell you where the edges of the board
are...then simply paste the picture into your favorite word processor
and size it there. PRESTO...a print feature :)
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: PhotoEtching PCBs (was: What to do after breadboarding) - poitsplace - Jan 31 4:05:00 2003
--- In avrclub@avrc..., "danjmaclean <captainvideo@w...>"
<captainvideo@w...> wrote:
> Holy cow, that's a lot of info! Thanks! The etching/ironing
> sounds pretty involved.
nah, it's a snap. I mean, if you wanted a custom PCB, you'd have to
design it anyway. You'd have to etch it anyway. You'd have to
somehow protect the board (photo-etch boards cost!)...basically, all
you're doing is making a photocopy and waiting for the iron to heat
up. You'd have to do everything else anyway (and other steps too!)
> My problem, I think, isn't so much lack of knowledge but laziness.
I am soooooo with you here
> Not only did I not want to bother reading that horribly long
> datasheet
After a while, you get used to it. You read it for the pinouts and
glance over the summary of it's function. Later on you read a little
more. Pretty soon you actually understand most of the datasheet. It
sneaks up on you.
> In fact, it is this laziness above anything else that pushed me to
> the AVR over the OOPic and Stamp. I knew I'd get reckless and fry
> a few things. I think I wrote it before: I'd rather fry an $8 AVR
> than an $80 Stamp.
Yeah, actually I just killed one with a terribly, terribly stupid
mistake. I didn't set my programmer properly...and I'd left
the "program fuses" option on (I use a PICALL programmer).
Anyway...the fuses on the processor it was set for (2313) are
basically the same settings that turn an 8535 into a one time program
chip :(
oh well, live and learn...I'm never checking that freaking option
again! More MCU's will be here soon to take it's place. And yeah,
you're right about the Stamp v/s MCU argument...as someone else said
earlier, I don't know why they still make stamps!
Anyway...GO GET SOME COATED INKJET PAPER...that'll be one less thing
you need to get when you need to etch your first boards (not to
mention, it makes for fantastic printouts on an inkjet)
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
<captainvideo@w...> wrote:
> Holy cow, that's a lot of info! Thanks! The etching/ironing
> sounds pretty involved.
nah, it's a snap. I mean, if you wanted a custom PCB, you'd have to
design it anyway. You'd have to etch it anyway. You'd have to
somehow protect the board (photo-etch boards cost!)...basically, all
you're doing is making a photocopy and waiting for the iron to heat
up. You'd have to do everything else anyway (and other steps too!)
> My problem, I think, isn't so much lack of knowledge but laziness.
I am soooooo with you here
> Not only did I not want to bother reading that horribly long
> datasheet
After a while, you get used to it. You read it for the pinouts and
glance over the summary of it's function. Later on you read a little
more. Pretty soon you actually understand most of the datasheet. It
sneaks up on you.
> In fact, it is this laziness above anything else that pushed me to
> the AVR over the OOPic and Stamp. I knew I'd get reckless and fry
> a few things. I think I wrote it before: I'd rather fry an $8 AVR
> than an $80 Stamp.
Yeah, actually I just killed one with a terribly, terribly stupid
mistake. I didn't set my programmer properly...and I'd left
the "program fuses" option on (I use a PICALL programmer).
Anyway...the fuses on the processor it was set for (2313) are
basically the same settings that turn an 8535 into a one time program
chip :(
oh well, live and learn...I'm never checking that freaking option
again! More MCU's will be here soon to take it's place. And yeah,
you're right about the Stamp v/s MCU argument...as someone else said
earlier, I don't know why they still make stamps!
Anyway...GO GET SOME COATED INKJET PAPER...that'll be one less thing
you need to get when you need to etch your first boards (not to
mention, it makes for fantastic printouts on an inkjet)
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
RE: Making PC boards with copy machine toner - Dan Thames - Jan 31 9:10:00 2003
If I were using this method with a laserjet, should I still use coated
inkjet paper? Is that the trick to get the paper off the toner?
Dan Thames
-----Original Message-----
From: poitsplace <lmburt@lmbu...> [mailto:lmburt@lmbu...]
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 2:06 AM
To: avrclub@avrc...
Subject: Making PC boards with copy machine toner I prefer to just use the copier toner method of circuit board
etching...and of course...throw in a patch of extra pads on the
board...just in case I've screwed up somehow with one of the minor
bits (Sort of like this board http://www.extremecooling.org/pcb.jpg :)
To make the board I used Express PCB ( http://www.expresspcb.com ).
Now I should point out that Express PCB has a really annoying habbit
of coloring or shading your board...making the printout's useless.
LUCKILY they didn't give a lot of thought to how they did the
shading. If you drag the lower right boundary of the PCB to the
upper right, you essentially define an L shaped board with NO SURFACE
AREA AT ALL! Anyway, it will print out your circuit...still has
those stupid dots, but they're relatively easy to work around.
Anyway, print out your board art (mirrored...many current printers
have this option...or you can do it with a photocopier) and make a
photocopy with a XEROGRAPHIC COPIER (like they have at kinkos)
onto...and this is the important part..."Coated" inkjet paper. This
is basically paper with a powder embedded in the surface to quickly
absorb the ink and give it a nice finish.
Then scrub your unetched copper clad board with a scothbrite pad or
some really fine sandpaper, then wash it off with a paper towel and
some alcohol (gets rid of greasy fingerprints). After your board is
clean, you can trim your photocopy down to size, place it face down
on the copper surface of the board and cover it with a couple sheets
of paper.
Now...whip out your iron, set it on HIGH and once it's heated up,
iron the PCB/paper. Since the toner from xerographic copiers (and
true laser printers) is basically made of plastic, it will melt and
stick to the board.
After ironing, let the board cool and toss the board (paper and all)
into some hot tap water. The coating from the coated inkjet paper
will disintegrate...leaving the coating (and the plastic
toner...which resists etching) on the board. Almost any paper that
says "coated inkjet paper" will work. (I've tried several brands.
Office max's store brand worked well...cost $10 for 100 sheets, but
you can find coated inkjet paper for a lot less)
All you have to do now is etch the board, scrub off the toner
(scotchrite again) and drill out all the holes. You can get a LOT of
detail with this method. If you're careful and use elongated (but
more narrow) pads, you can actually run 2 traces between standard .1
inch DIP pins
one last important part...you don't REALLY have to drill all those
holes. With only a small amount of practice (and some flux helps)
you can surface mount almost everything. You'll find that most chip
sockets can easily be adapted by simply bending the pins (make sure
to use wider pads though since the only thing holding the socket on
will be the glue holding on the pads) and that most discrete
components just need to be bent like normal..but with the leads cut
short.
Hope this was helpful Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
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Real-world software for real-time control. Details Here!
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
inkjet paper? Is that the trick to get the paper off the toner?
Dan Thames
-----Original Message-----
From: poitsplace <lmburt@lmbu...> [mailto:lmburt@lmbu...]
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 2:06 AM
To: avrclub@avrc...
Subject: Making PC boards with copy machine toner I prefer to just use the copier toner method of circuit board
etching...and of course...throw in a patch of extra pads on the
board...just in case I've screwed up somehow with one of the minor
bits (Sort of like this board http://www.extremecooling.org/pcb.jpg :)
To make the board I used Express PCB ( http://www.expresspcb.com ).
Now I should point out that Express PCB has a really annoying habbit
of coloring or shading your board...making the printout's useless.
LUCKILY they didn't give a lot of thought to how they did the
shading. If you drag the lower right boundary of the PCB to the
upper right, you essentially define an L shaped board with NO SURFACE
AREA AT ALL! Anyway, it will print out your circuit...still has
those stupid dots, but they're relatively easy to work around.
Anyway, print out your board art (mirrored...many current printers
have this option...or you can do it with a photocopier) and make a
photocopy with a XEROGRAPHIC COPIER (like they have at kinkos)
onto...and this is the important part..."Coated" inkjet paper. This
is basically paper with a powder embedded in the surface to quickly
absorb the ink and give it a nice finish.
Then scrub your unetched copper clad board with a scothbrite pad or
some really fine sandpaper, then wash it off with a paper towel and
some alcohol (gets rid of greasy fingerprints). After your board is
clean, you can trim your photocopy down to size, place it face down
on the copper surface of the board and cover it with a couple sheets
of paper.
Now...whip out your iron, set it on HIGH and once it's heated up,
iron the PCB/paper. Since the toner from xerographic copiers (and
true laser printers) is basically made of plastic, it will melt and
stick to the board.
After ironing, let the board cool and toss the board (paper and all)
into some hot tap water. The coating from the coated inkjet paper
will disintegrate...leaving the coating (and the plastic
toner...which resists etching) on the board. Almost any paper that
says "coated inkjet paper" will work. (I've tried several brands.
Office max's store brand worked well...cost $10 for 100 sheets, but
you can find coated inkjet paper for a lot less)
All you have to do now is etch the board, scrub off the toner
(scotchrite again) and drill out all the holes. You can get a LOT of
detail with this method. If you're careful and use elongated (but
more narrow) pads, you can actually run 2 traces between standard .1
inch DIP pins
one last important part...you don't REALLY have to drill all those
holes. With only a small amount of practice (and some flux helps)
you can surface mount almost everything. You'll find that most chip
sockets can easily be adapted by simply bending the pins (make sure
to use wider pads though since the only thing holding the socket on
will be the glue holding on the pads) and that most discrete
components just need to be bent like normal..but with the leads cut
short.
Hope this was helpful Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=241773.2861420.4212388.2848452/D=egroupweb/S=1706
554205:HM/A=1394046/R=0/*http:/www.hgtv.com/hgtv/pac_ctnt/text/0,,HGTV_3
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Real-world software for real-time control. Details Here!
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Re: Making PC boards with copy machine toner - poitsplace - Jan 31 15:51:00 2003
With a Laserjet you would also use coated inkjet paper (make sure you
get the correct side up)...and of course, since Laserjets use toner
(or at least, the HP laserjets do...I assme they're the only ones)
you can then go straight from the printed output to the circuit baord.
Just follow all the steps except the ones involving making a copy --- In avrclub@avrc..., "Dan Thames" <dthames@v...> wrote:
> If I were using this method with a laserjet, should I still use
coated
> inkjet paper? Is that the trick to get the paper off the toner?
>
> Dan Thames
______________________________
controlSUITE™ software. Comprehensive. Intuitive. Optimized.
Real-world software for real-time control. Details Here!
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
get the correct side up)...and of course, since Laserjets use toner
(or at least, the HP laserjets do...I assme they're the only ones)
you can then go straight from the printed output to the circuit baord.
Just follow all the steps except the ones involving making a copy --- In avrclub@avrc..., "Dan Thames" <dthames@v...> wrote:
> If I were using this method with a laserjet, should I still use
coated
> inkjet paper? Is that the trick to get the paper off the toner?
>
> Dan Thames
______________________________
controlSUITE™ software. Comprehensive. Intuitive. Optimized.
Real-world software for real-time control. Details Here!
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: [AVR club] RE: Making PC boards with copy machine toner - john paul - Jan 31 23:31:00 2003
thanks for detailes of making pcb.please suggest me
is there is any software if we give circuit diagram
it has to give pcb lay out. --- Dan Thames <dthames@dtha...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body <tt>
If I were using this method with a laserjet, should I
still use coated<BR>
inkjet paper? Is that the trick to get the paper
off the toner?<BR>
<BR>
Dan Thames<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: poitsplace <lmburt@lmbu...>
[mailto:lmburt@lmbu...] <BR>
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 2:06 AM<BR>
To: avrclub@avrc...<BR>
Subject: Making PC boards with copy machine toner<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I prefer to just use the copier toner method of
circuit board <BR>
etching...and of course...throw in a patch of extra
pads on the <BR>
board...just in case I've screwed up somehow with one
of the minor <BR>
bits (Sort of like this board <a
href="http://www.extremecooling.org/pcb.jpg">http://www.extremecooling.org/pcb.jpg</a>
:)<BR>
<BR>
To make the board I used Express PCB ( <a
href="http://www.expresspcb.com">http://www.expresspcb.com</a>
). <BR>
Now I should point out that Express PCB has a really
annoying habbit <BR>
of coloring or shading your board...making the
printout's useless. <BR>
LUCKILY they didn't give a lot of thought to how they
did the <BR>
shading. If you drag the lower right boundary of
the PCB to the <BR>
upper right, you essentially define an L shaped board
with NO SURFACE <BR>
AREA AT ALL! Anyway, it will print out your
circuit...still has <BR>
those stupid dots, but they're relatively easy to work
around.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, print out your board art (mirrored...many
current printers <BR>
have this option...or you can do it with a
photocopier) and make a <BR>
photocopy with a XEROGRAPHIC COPIER (like they have at
kinkos) <BR>
onto...and this is the important
part..."Coated" inkjet paper. This
<BR>
is basically paper with a powder embedded in the
surface to quickly <BR>
absorb the ink and give it a nice finish.<BR>
<BR>
Then scrub your unetched copper clad board with a
scothbrite pad or <BR>
some really fine sandpaper, then wash it off with a
paper towel and <BR>
some alcohol (gets rid of greasy fingerprints).
After your board is <BR>
clean, you can trim your photocopy down to size, place
it face down <BR>
on the copper surface of the board and cover it with a
couple sheets <BR>
of paper.<BR>
<BR>
Now...whip out your iron, set it on HIGH and once it's
heated up, <BR>
iron the PCB/paper. Since the toner from
xerographic copiers (and <BR>
true laser printers) is basically made of plastic, it
will melt and <BR>
stick to the board.<BR>
<BR>
After ironing, let the board cool and toss the board
(paper and all) <BR>
into some hot tap water. The coating from the
coated inkjet paper <BR>
will disintegrate...leaving the coating (and the
plastic <BR>
toner...which resists etching) on the board.
Almost any paper that <BR>
says "coated inkjet paper" will work.
(I've tried several brands. <BR>
Office max's store brand worked well...cost $10 for
100 sheets, but <BR>
you can find coated inkjet paper for a lot less)<BR>
<BR>
All you have to do now is etch the board, scrub off
the toner <BR>
(scotchrite again) and drill out all the holes.
You can get a LOT of <BR>
detail with this method. If you're careful and
use elongated (but <BR>
more narrow) pads, you can actually run 2 traces
between standard .1 <BR>
inch DIP pins<BR>
<BR>
one last important part...you don't REALLY have to
drill all those <BR>
holes. With only a small amount of practice (and
some flux helps) <BR>
you can surface mount almost everything. You'll
find that most chip <BR>
sockets can easily be adapted by simply bending the
pins (make sure <BR>
to use wider pads though since the only thing holding
the socket on <BR>
will be the glue holding on the pads) and that most
discrete <BR>
components just need to be bent like normal..but with
the leads cut <BR>
short.<BR>
<BR>
Hope this was helpful<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
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MARIA JOHN PAUL D
ENGINEER (R&D HA) AC
LG ELECTRONICS ________________________________________________________________________
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(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
is there is any software if we give circuit diagram
it has to give pcb lay out. --- Dan Thames <dthames@dtha...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body <tt>
If I were using this method with a laserjet, should I
still use coated<BR>
inkjet paper? Is that the trick to get the paper
off the toner?<BR>
<BR>
Dan Thames<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: poitsplace <lmburt@lmbu...>
[mailto:lmburt@lmbu...] <BR>
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 2:06 AM<BR>
To: avrclub@avrc...<BR>
Subject: Making PC boards with copy machine toner<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I prefer to just use the copier toner method of
circuit board <BR>
etching...and of course...throw in a patch of extra
pads on the <BR>
board...just in case I've screwed up somehow with one
of the minor <BR>
bits (Sort of like this board <a
href="http://www.extremecooling.org/pcb.jpg">http://www.extremecooling.org/pcb.jpg</a>
:)<BR>
<BR>
To make the board I used Express PCB ( <a
href="http://www.expresspcb.com">http://www.expresspcb.com</a>
). <BR>
Now I should point out that Express PCB has a really
annoying habbit <BR>
of coloring or shading your board...making the
printout's useless. <BR>
LUCKILY they didn't give a lot of thought to how they
did the <BR>
shading. If you drag the lower right boundary of
the PCB to the <BR>
upper right, you essentially define an L shaped board
with NO SURFACE <BR>
AREA AT ALL! Anyway, it will print out your
circuit...still has <BR>
those stupid dots, but they're relatively easy to work
around.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, print out your board art (mirrored...many
current printers <BR>
have this option...or you can do it with a
photocopier) and make a <BR>
photocopy with a XEROGRAPHIC COPIER (like they have at
kinkos) <BR>
onto...and this is the important
part..."Coated" inkjet paper. This
<BR>
is basically paper with a powder embedded in the
surface to quickly <BR>
absorb the ink and give it a nice finish.<BR>
<BR>
Then scrub your unetched copper clad board with a
scothbrite pad or <BR>
some really fine sandpaper, then wash it off with a
paper towel and <BR>
some alcohol (gets rid of greasy fingerprints).
After your board is <BR>
clean, you can trim your photocopy down to size, place
it face down <BR>
on the copper surface of the board and cover it with a
couple sheets <BR>
of paper.<BR>
<BR>
Now...whip out your iron, set it on HIGH and once it's
heated up, <BR>
iron the PCB/paper. Since the toner from
xerographic copiers (and <BR>
true laser printers) is basically made of plastic, it
will melt and <BR>
stick to the board.<BR>
<BR>
After ironing, let the board cool and toss the board
(paper and all) <BR>
into some hot tap water. The coating from the
coated inkjet paper <BR>
will disintegrate...leaving the coating (and the
plastic <BR>
toner...which resists etching) on the board.
Almost any paper that <BR>
says "coated inkjet paper" will work.
(I've tried several brands. <BR>
Office max's store brand worked well...cost $10 for
100 sheets, but <BR>
you can find coated inkjet paper for a lot less)<BR>
<BR>
All you have to do now is etch the board, scrub off
the toner <BR>
(scotchrite again) and drill out all the holes.
You can get a LOT of <BR>
detail with this method. If you're careful and
use elongated (but <BR>
more narrow) pads, you can actually run 2 traces
between standard .1 <BR>
inch DIP pins<BR>
<BR>
one last important part...you don't REALLY have to
drill all those <BR>
holes. With only a small amount of practice (and
some flux helps) <BR>
you can surface mount almost everything. You'll
find that most chip <BR>
sockets can easily be adapted by simply bending the
pins (make sure <BR>
to use wider pads though since the only thing holding
the socket on <BR>
will be the glue holding on the pads) and that most
discrete <BR>
components just need to be bent like normal..but with
the leads cut <BR>
short.<BR>
<BR>
Hope this was helpful<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
ADVERTISEMENT<BR>
<BR>
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href="http://rd.yahoo.com/M=241773.2861420.4212388.2848452/D=egroupweb/S=1706">http://rd.yahoo.com/M=241773.2861420.4212388.2848452/D=egroupweb/S=1706</a><BR>
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MARIA JOHN PAUL D
ENGINEER (R&D HA) AC
LG ELECTRONICS ________________________________________________________________________
Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, Yahoo! TV.
visit http://in.tv.yahoo.com
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: [AVR club] RE: Making PC boards with copy machine toner - Prasad Mehendale - Feb 1 1:54:00 2003
john paul wrote:
> thanks for detailes of making pcb.please suggest me
> is there is any software if we give circuit diagram
> it has to give pcb lay out.
>
> --- Dan Thames <dthames@dtha...> wrote:
> <HR>
> <html><body>
>
> <tt>
> If I were using this method with a laserjet, should I
> still use coated<BR>
> inkjet paper? Is that the trick to get the paper
> off the toner?<BR>
> <BR>
> Dan Thames<BR>
> <BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: poitsplace <lmburt@lmbu...>
> [mailto:lmburt@lmbu...] <BR>
> Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 2:06 AM<BR>
> To: avrclub@avrc...<BR>
> Subject: Making PC boards with copy machine toner<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> I prefer to just use the copier toner method of
> circuit board <BR>
> etching...and of course...throw in a patch of extra
> pads on the <BR>
> board...just in case I've screwed up somehow with one
> of the minor <BR>
> bits (Sort of like this board <a
> href="http://www.extremecooling.org/pcb.jpg">http://www.extremecooling.org/pcb.jpg</a>
> :)<BR>
> <BR>
> To make the board I used Express PCB ( <a
> href="http://www.expresspcb.com">http://www.expresspcb.com</a>
> ). <BR>
> Now I should point out that Express PCB has a really
> annoying habbit <BR>
> of coloring or shading your board...making the
> printout's useless. <BR>
> LUCKILY they didn't give a lot of thought to how they
> did the <BR>
> shading. If you drag the lower right boundary of
> the PCB to the <BR>
> upper right, you essentially define an L shaped board
> with NO SURFACE <BR>
> AREA AT ALL! Anyway, it will print out your
> circuit...still has <BR>
> those stupid dots, but they're relatively easy to work
> around.<BR>
> <BR>
> Anyway, print out your board art (mirrored...many
> current printers <BR>
> have this option...or you can do it with a
> photocopier) and make a <BR>
> photocopy with a XEROGRAPHIC COPIER (like they have at
> kinkos) <BR>
> onto...and this is the important
> part..."Coated" inkjet paper. This
> <BR>
> is basically paper with a powder embedded in the
> surface to quickly <BR>
> absorb the ink and give it a nice finish.<BR>
> <BR>
> Then scrub your unetched copper clad board with a
> scothbrite pad or <BR>
> some really fine sandpaper, then wash it off with a
> paper towel and <BR>
> some alcohol (gets rid of greasy fingerprints).
> After your board is <BR>
> clean, you can trim your photocopy down to size, place
> it face down <BR>
> on the copper surface of the board and cover it with a
> couple sheets <BR>
> of paper.<BR>
> <BR>
> Now...whip out your iron, set it on HIGH and once it's
> heated up, <BR>
> iron the PCB/paper. Since the toner from
> xerographic copiers (and <BR>
> true laser printers) is basically made of plastic, it
> will melt and <BR>
> stick to the board.<BR>
> <BR>
> After ironing, let the board cool and toss the board
> (paper and all) <BR>
> into some hot tap water. The coating from the
> coated inkjet paper <BR>
> will disintegrate...leaving the coating (and the
> plastic <BR>
> toner...which resists etching) on the board.
> Almost any paper that <BR>
> says "coated inkjet paper" will work.
> (I've tried several brands. <BR>
> Office max's store brand worked well...cost $10 for
> 100 sheets, but <BR>
> you can find coated inkjet paper for a lot less)<BR>
> <BR>
> All you have to do now is etch the board, scrub off
> the toner <BR>
> (scotchrite again) and drill out all the holes.
> You can get a LOT of <BR>
> detail with this method. If you're careful and
> use elongated (but <BR>
> more narrow) pads, you can actually run 2 traces
> between standard .1 <BR>
> inch DIP pins<BR>
> <BR>
> one last important part...you don't REALLY have to
> drill all those <BR>
> holes. With only a small amount of practice (and
> some flux helps) <BR>
> you can surface mount almost everything. You'll
> find that most chip <BR>
> sockets can easily be adapted by simply bending the
> pins (make sure <BR>
> to use wider pads though since the only thing holding
> the socket on <BR>
> will be the glue holding on the pads) and that most
> discrete <BR>
> components just need to be bent like normal..but with
> the leads cut <BR>
> short.<BR>
> <BR>
> Hope this was helpful<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> ADVERTISEMENT<BR>
> <BR>
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> href="http://rd.yahoo.com/M=241773.2861420.4212388.2848452/D=egroupweb/S=1706">http://rd.yahoo.com/M=241773.2861420.4212388.2848452/D=egroupweb/S=1706</a><BR>
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> pmail/S=:HM/A=1394046/rand=625819377> <BR>
> <BR>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<BR>
> avrclub-unsubscribe@avrc...<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> ">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/</a>>
> Terms of Service. <BR>
> <BR>
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> target=_top><img
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> </body></html > ===== >
> Thanks & Regards,
>
> MARIA JOHN PAUL D
>
> ENGINEER (R&D HA) AC
>
> LG ELECTRONICS
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, Yahoo! TV.
> visit http://in.tv.yahoo.com
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> avrclub-unsubscribe@avrc... why not change the name of our club as pcbclub ?
prasad
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
> thanks for detailes of making pcb.please suggest me
> is there is any software if we give circuit diagram
> it has to give pcb lay out.
>
> --- Dan Thames <dthames@dtha...> wrote:
> <HR>
> <html><body>
>
> <tt>
> If I were using this method with a laserjet, should I
> still use coated<BR>
> inkjet paper? Is that the trick to get the paper
> off the toner?<BR>
> <BR>
> Dan Thames<BR>
> <BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: poitsplace <lmburt@lmbu...>
> [mailto:lmburt@lmbu...] <BR>
> Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 2:06 AM<BR>
> To: avrclub@avrc...<BR>
> Subject: Making PC boards with copy machine toner<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> I prefer to just use the copier toner method of
> circuit board <BR>
> etching...and of course...throw in a patch of extra
> pads on the <BR>
> board...just in case I've screwed up somehow with one
> of the minor <BR>
> bits (Sort of like this board <a
> href="http://www.extremecooling.org/pcb.jpg">http://www.extremecooling.org/pcb.jpg</a>
> :)<BR>
> <BR>
> To make the board I used Express PCB ( <a
> href="http://www.expresspcb.com">http://www.expresspcb.com</a>
> ). <BR>
> Now I should point out that Express PCB has a really
> annoying habbit <BR>
> of coloring or shading your board...making the
> printout's useless. <BR>
> LUCKILY they didn't give a lot of thought to how they
> did the <BR>
> shading. If you drag the lower right boundary of
> the PCB to the <BR>
> upper right, you essentially define an L shaped board
> with NO SURFACE <BR>
> AREA AT ALL! Anyway, it will print out your
> circuit...still has <BR>
> those stupid dots, but they're relatively easy to work
> around.<BR>
> <BR>
> Anyway, print out your board art (mirrored...many
> current printers <BR>
> have this option...or you can do it with a
> photocopier) and make a <BR>
> photocopy with a XEROGRAPHIC COPIER (like they have at
> kinkos) <BR>
> onto...and this is the important
> part..."Coated" inkjet paper. This
> <BR>
> is basically paper with a powder embedded in the
> surface to quickly <BR>
> absorb the ink and give it a nice finish.<BR>
> <BR>
> Then scrub your unetched copper clad board with a
> scothbrite pad or <BR>
> some really fine sandpaper, then wash it off with a
> paper towel and <BR>
> some alcohol (gets rid of greasy fingerprints).
> After your board is <BR>
> clean, you can trim your photocopy down to size, place
> it face down <BR>
> on the copper surface of the board and cover it with a
> couple sheets <BR>
> of paper.<BR>
> <BR>
> Now...whip out your iron, set it on HIGH and once it's
> heated up, <BR>
> iron the PCB/paper. Since the toner from
> xerographic copiers (and <BR>
> true laser printers) is basically made of plastic, it
> will melt and <BR>
> stick to the board.<BR>
> <BR>
> After ironing, let the board cool and toss the board
> (paper and all) <BR>
> into some hot tap water. The coating from the
> coated inkjet paper <BR>
> will disintegrate...leaving the coating (and the
> plastic <BR>
> toner...which resists etching) on the board.
> Almost any paper that <BR>
> says "coated inkjet paper" will work.
> (I've tried several brands. <BR>
> Office max's store brand worked well...cost $10 for
> 100 sheets, but <BR>
> you can find coated inkjet paper for a lot less)<BR>
> <BR>
> All you have to do now is etch the board, scrub off
> the toner <BR>
> (scotchrite again) and drill out all the holes.
> You can get a LOT of <BR>
> detail with this method. If you're careful and
> use elongated (but <BR>
> more narrow) pads, you can actually run 2 traces
> between standard .1 <BR>
> inch DIP pins<BR>
> <BR>
> one last important part...you don't REALLY have to
> drill all those <BR>
> holes. With only a small amount of practice (and
> some flux helps) <BR>
> you can surface mount almost everything. You'll
> find that most chip <BR>
> sockets can easily be adapted by simply bending the
> pins (make sure <BR>
> to use wider pads though since the only thing holding
> the socket on <BR>
> will be the glue holding on the pads) and that most
> discrete <BR>
> components just need to be bent like normal..but with
> the leads cut <BR>
> short.<BR>
> <BR>
> Hope this was helpful<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> ADVERTISEMENT<BR>
> <BR>
> <<a
> href="http://rd.yahoo.com/M=241773.2861420.4212388.2848452/D=egroupweb/S=1706">http://rd.yahoo.com/M=241773.2861420.4212388.2848452/D=egroupweb/S=1706</a><BR>
> 554205:HM/A=1394046/R=0/*http:/www.hgtv.com/hgtv/pac_ctnt/text/0,,HGTV_3<BR>
> 936_5802,FF.html> HGTV Dream Home Giveaway<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <<a
> href="http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=241773.2861420.4212388.2848452/D=egrou">http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=241773.2861420.4212388.2848452/D=egrou</a><BR>
> pmail/S=:HM/A=1394046/rand=625819377> <BR>
> <BR>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<BR>
> avrclub-unsubscribe@avrc...<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> ">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/</a>>
> Terms of Service. <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]<BR>
> <BR>
> </tt>
>
> <br>
>
> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
>
> <table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
> <td align=center><font size="-1"
> color=#003399><b>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor</b></font></td>
> </tr>
> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF>
> <td align=center width=470><table border=0
> cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0> <tr> <td
> align=center><font face=arial
> size=-2>ADVERTISEMENT</font><br><a
> href="http://rd.yahoo.com/M=233351.2876045.4223503.2848452/D=egroupweb/S=1706554205:HM/A=1341247/R=0/*https://www.gotomypc.com/tr/yh/grp/300_mapG/g22lp?Target=mm/g22lp.tmpl"
> target=_top><img
> src="http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ex/expert_city/300x250_map.gif"
> alt="" width="300" height="250" border="0"></a></td>
> </tr> </table></td>
> </tr>
> <tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1
> src="http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=233351.2876045.4223503.2848452/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1341247/rand=518463761"></td></tr>
> </table>
>
> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
>
> <br>
> <tt>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<BR>
> avrclub-unsubscribe@avrc...<BR>
> <BR>
> </tt>
> <br>
>
> <br>
> <tt>">Yahoo! Terms
> of Service</a>.</tt>
> </br>
>
> </body></html > ===== >
> Thanks & Regards,
>
> MARIA JOHN PAUL D
>
> ENGINEER (R&D HA) AC
>
> LG ELECTRONICS
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, Yahoo! TV.
> visit http://in.tv.yahoo.com
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> avrclub-unsubscribe@avrc... why not change the name of our club as pcbclub ?
prasad
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: [AVR club] RE: Making PC boards with copy machine toner - poitsplace - Feb 1 2:56:00 2003
> why not change the name of our club as pcbclub ?
> prasad
Pretty much every group that deals with electronics...will have to
get down to the business of etching circuit boards (or at the very
least...how use various types of prototyping)
besides, you can do a lot more with these methods...you can make
useful controller boards less than an inch square if you're careful
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
> prasad
Pretty much every group that deals with electronics...will have to
get down to the business of etching circuit boards (or at the very
least...how use various types of prototyping)
besides, you can do a lot more with these methods...you can make
useful controller boards less than an inch square if you're careful
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: [AVR club] RE: Making PC boards with copy machine toner - dino - Feb 1 3:50:00 2003
I use a very much cheaper paper. I simply keep the
oily backings of CD labels.
1. Print your PCB layout onto an A4 paper.
2. Cut the oily paper slightly bigger than the board
layout.
3. Stick the oily paper over the board layout that you
just printed.
4. Only stick them with paper adhesive (not plastic)
The left over sticker from the labels make a good
choice.
5. Lightly brush the oily paper with fine steelwool so
that the toner can stick to it.
6. Put the A4 sheet back in the laser and print.
7. Your artwork should now appear on the oily paper.
If the tracks are distorted. Simply rub with steel
wool again this time a bit harder.
8. Remember the artwork and text should be mirrored.
9. Iron on the usual way
Hope this helps coz I think the coated paper is kind
of expensive. I prefer to recycle waste!! Regards
Robyn.
--- Prasad Mehendale <prachit1@prac...> wrote:
> john paul wrote:
>
> > thanks for detailes of making pcb.please suggest
> me
> > is there is any software if we give circuit
> diagram
> > it has to give pcb lay out.
> >
> > --- Dan Thames <dthames@dtha...> wrote:
> > <HR>
> > <html><body>
> >
> > <tt>
> > If I were using this method with a laserjet,
> should I
> > still use coated<BR>
> > inkjet paper? Is that the trick to get the
> paper
> > off the toner?<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Dan Thames<BR>
> > <BR>
> > -----Original Message-----<BR>
> > From: poitsplace <lmburt@lmbu...>
> > [mailto:lmburt@lmbu...] <BR>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 2:06 AM<BR>
> > To: avrclub@avrc...<BR>
> > Subject: Making PC boards with copy machine
> toner<BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > I prefer to just use the copier toner method of
> > circuit board <BR>
> > etching...and of course...throw in a patch of
> extra
> > pads on the <BR>
> > board...just in case I've screwed up somehow with
> one
> > of the minor <BR>
> > bits (Sort of like this board <a
> >
>
href="http://www.extremecooling.org/pcb.jpg">http://www.extremecooling.org/pcb.jpg</a>
> > :)<BR>
> > <BR>
> > To make the board I used Express PCB ( <a
> >
>
href="http://www.expresspcb.com">http://www.expresspcb.com</a>
> > ). <BR>
> > Now I should point out that Express PCB has a
> really
> > annoying habbit <BR>
> > of coloring or shading your board...making the
> > printout's useless. <BR>
> > LUCKILY they didn't give a lot of thought to how
> they
> > did the <BR>
> > shading. If you drag the lower right
> boundary of
> > the PCB to the <BR>
> > upper right, you essentially define an L shaped
> board
> > with NO SURFACE <BR>
> > AREA AT ALL! Anyway, it will print out your
> > circuit...still has <BR>
> > those stupid dots, but they're relatively easy to
> work
> > around.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Anyway, print out your board art (mirrored...many
> > current printers <BR>
> > have this option...or you can do it with a
> > photocopier) and make a <BR>
> > photocopy with a XEROGRAPHIC COPIER (like they
> have at
> > kinkos) <BR>
> > onto...and this is the important
> > part..."Coated" inkjet paper. This
> > <BR>
> > is basically paper with a powder embedded in the
> > surface to quickly <BR>
> > absorb the ink and give it a nice finish.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Then scrub your unetched copper clad board with a
> > scothbrite pad or <BR>
> > some really fine sandpaper, then wash it off with
> a
> > paper towel and <BR>
> > some alcohol (gets rid of greasy
> fingerprints).
> > After your board is <BR>
> > clean, you can trim your photocopy down to size,
> place
> > it face down <BR>
> > on the copper surface of the board and cover it
> with a
> > couple sheets <BR>
> > of paper.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Now...whip out your iron, set it on HIGH and once
> it's
> > heated up, <BR>
> > iron the PCB/paper. Since the toner from
> > xerographic copiers (and <BR>
> > true laser printers) is basically made of plastic,
> it
> > will melt and <BR>
> > stick to the board.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > After ironing, let the board cool and toss the
> board
> > (paper and all) <BR>
> > into some hot tap water. The coating from
> the
> > coated inkjet paper <BR>
> > will disintegrate...leaving the coating (and the
> > plastic <BR>
> > toner...which resists etching) on the board.
> > Almost any paper that <BR>
> > says "coated inkjet paper" will
> work.
> > (I've tried several brands. <BR>
> > Office max's store brand worked well...cost $10
> for
> > 100 sheets, but <BR>
> > you can find coated inkjet paper for a lot
> less)<BR>
> > <BR>
> > All you have to do now is etch the board, scrub
> off
> > the toner <BR>
> > (scotchrite again) and drill out all the
> holes.
> > You can get a LOT of <BR>
> > detail with this method. If you're careful
> and
> > use elongated (but <BR>
> > more narrow) pads, you can actually run 2 traces
> > between standard .1 <BR>
> > inch DIP pins<BR>
> > <BR>
> > one last important part...you don't REALLY have to
> > drill all those <BR>
> > holes. With only a small amount of practice
> (and
> > some flux helps) <BR>
> > you can surface mount almost everything.
> You'll
> > find that most chip <BR>
> > sockets can easily be adapted by simply bending
> the
> > pins (make sure <BR>
> > to use wider pads though since the only thing
> holding
> > the socket on <BR>
> > will be the glue holding on the pads) and that
> most
> > discrete <BR>
> > components just need to be bent like normal..but
> with
> > the leads cut <BR>
> > short.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Hope this was helpful<BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor<BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > ADVERTISEMENT<BR>
> > <BR>
> > <<a
> >
>
href="http://rd.yahoo.com/M=241773.2861420.4212388.2848452/D=egroupweb/S=1706">http://rd.yahoo.com/M=241773.2861420.4212388.2848452/D=egroupweb/S=1706</a><BR>
> >
>
554205:HM/A=1394046/R=0/*http:/www.hgtv.com/hgtv/pac_ctnt/text/0,,HGTV_3<BR>
> > 936_5802,FF.html> HGTV Dream Home Giveaway<BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > <<a
> >
>
href="http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=241773.2861420.4212388.2848452/D=egrou">http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=241773.2861420.4212388.2848452/D=egrou</a><BR>
> > pmail/S=:HM/A=1394046/rand=625819377> <BR>
> > <BR>
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
> to:<BR>
> > avrclub-unsubscribe@avrc...<BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > ">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/</a>>
> > Terms of Service. <BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
>
=== message truncated === __________________________________________________
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
oily backings of CD labels.
1. Print your PCB layout onto an A4 paper.
2. Cut the oily paper slightly bigger than the board
layout.
3. Stick the oily paper over the board layout that you
just printed.
4. Only stick them with paper adhesive (not plastic)
The left over sticker from the labels make a good
choice.
5. Lightly brush the oily paper with fine steelwool so
that the toner can stick to it.
6. Put the A4 sheet back in the laser and print.
7. Your artwork should now appear on the oily paper.
If the tracks are distorted. Simply rub with steel
wool again this time a bit harder.
8. Remember the artwork and text should be mirrored.
9. Iron on the usual way
Hope this helps coz I think the coated paper is kind
of expensive. I prefer to recycle waste!! Regards
Robyn.
--- Prasad Mehendale <prachit1@prac...> wrote:
> john paul wrote:
>
> > thanks for detailes of making pcb.please suggest
> me
> > is there is any software if we give circuit
> diagram
> > it has to give pcb lay out.
> >
> > --- Dan Thames <dthames@dtha...> wrote:
> > <HR>
> > <html><body>
> >
> > <tt>
> > If I were using this method with a laserjet,
> should I
> > still use coated<BR>
> > inkjet paper? Is that the trick to get the
> paper
> > off the toner?<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Dan Thames<BR>
> > <BR>
> > -----Original Message-----<BR>
> > From: poitsplace <lmburt@lmbu...>
> > [mailto:lmburt@lmbu...] <BR>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 2:06 AM<BR>
> > To: avrclub@avrc...<BR>
> > Subject: Making PC boards with copy machine
> toner<BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > I prefer to just use the copier toner method of
> > circuit board <BR>
> > etching...and of course...throw in a patch of
> extra
> > pads on the <BR>
> > board...just in case I've screwed up somehow with
> one
> > of the minor <BR>
> > bits (Sort of like this board <a
> >
>
href="http://www.extremecooling.org/pcb.jpg">http://www.extremecooling.org/pcb.jpg</a>
> > :)<BR>
> > <BR>
> > To make the board I used Express PCB ( <a
> >
>
href="http://www.expresspcb.com">http://www.expresspcb.com</a>
> > ). <BR>
> > Now I should point out that Express PCB has a
> really
> > annoying habbit <BR>
> > of coloring or shading your board...making the
> > printout's useless. <BR>
> > LUCKILY they didn't give a lot of thought to how
> they
> > did the <BR>
> > shading. If you drag the lower right
> boundary of
> > the PCB to the <BR>
> > upper right, you essentially define an L shaped
> board
> > with NO SURFACE <BR>
> > AREA AT ALL! Anyway, it will print out your
> > circuit...still has <BR>
> > those stupid dots, but they're relatively easy to
> work
> > around.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Anyway, print out your board art (mirrored...many
> > current printers <BR>
> > have this option...or you can do it with a
> > photocopier) and make a <BR>
> > photocopy with a XEROGRAPHIC COPIER (like they
> have at
> > kinkos) <BR>
> > onto...and this is the important
> > part..."Coated" inkjet paper. This
> > <BR>
> > is basically paper with a powder embedded in the
> > surface to quickly <BR>
> > absorb the ink and give it a nice finish.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Then scrub your unetched copper clad board with a
> > scothbrite pad or <BR>
> > some really fine sandpaper, then wash it off with
> a
> > paper towel and <BR>
> > some alcohol (gets rid of greasy
> fingerprints).
> > After your board is <BR>
> > clean, you can trim your photocopy down to size,
> place
> > it face down <BR>
> > on the copper surface of the board and cover it
> with a
> > couple sheets <BR>
> > of paper.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Now...whip out your iron, set it on HIGH and once
> it's
> > heated up, <BR>
> > iron the PCB/paper. Since the toner from
> > xerographic copiers (and <BR>
> > true laser printers) is basically made of plastic,
> it
> > will melt and <BR>
> > stick to the board.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > After ironing, let the board cool and toss the
> board
> > (paper and all) <BR>
> > into some hot tap water. The coating from
> the
> > coated inkjet paper <BR>
> > will disintegrate...leaving the coating (and the
> > plastic <BR>
> > toner...which resists etching) on the board.
> > Almost any paper that <BR>
> > says "coated inkjet paper" will
> work.
> > (I've tried several brands. <BR>
> > Office max's store brand worked well...cost $10
> for
> > 100 sheets, but <BR>
> > you can find coated inkjet paper for a lot
> less)<BR>
> > <BR>
> > All you have to do now is etch the board, scrub
> off
> > the toner <BR>
> > (scotchrite again) and drill out all the
> holes.
> > You can get a LOT of <BR>
> > detail with this method. If you're careful
> and
> > use elongated (but <BR>
> > more narrow) pads, you can actually run 2 traces
> > between standard .1 <BR>
> > inch DIP pins<BR>
> > <BR>
> > one last important part...you don't REALLY have to
> > drill all those <BR>
> > holes. With only a small amount of practice
> (and
> > some flux helps) <BR>
> > you can surface mount almost everything.
> You'll
> > find that most chip <BR>
> > sockets can easily be adapted by simply bending
> the
> > pins (make sure <BR>
> > to use wider pads though since the only thing
> holding
> > the socket on <BR>
> > will be the glue holding on the pads) and that
> most
> > discrete <BR>
> > components just need to be bent like normal..but
> with
> > the leads cut <BR>
> > short.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Hope this was helpful<BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor<BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > ADVERTISEMENT<BR>
> > <BR>
> > <<a
> >
>
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> >
>
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> > 936_5802,FF.html> HGTV Dream Home Giveaway<BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > <<a
> >
>
href="http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=241773.2861420.4212388.2848452/D=egrou">http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=241773.2861420.4212388.2848452/D=egrou</a><BR>
> > pmail/S=:HM/A=1394046/rand=625819377> <BR>
> > <BR>
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
> to:<BR>
> > avrclub-unsubscribe@avrc...<BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > ">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/</a>>
> > Terms of Service. <BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
>
=== message truncated === __________________________________________________
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Re: [AVR club] RE: Making PC boards with copy machine toner - dezellis - Feb 1 5:21:00 2003
Hi Prasad,
Perhaps you have a point, however, I am pleased to see any activity
on this list it has been very quiet recently and I will, therefore,
contribute to the debate.
> why not change the name of our club as pcbclub ?
> prasad
PCB's:- I can create my own using the laser toner method on the
special blue toner transfer paper but I use a laminator machine
instead of ironing. Two sided PCB's are possible if you are really
careful.
However, the total cost to buy the necessary equipment for this
method is not really cheap. Etchant, Copper Clad board, tinning
powder, dremel drill or similar complete with stand. Also the time
taken to etch, drill and cut to size is not trivial.
I now use http://www.olimex.com/pcb/index.html for most of my
prototypes at $26 with $5 postage this service cannot be beaten. I am
not affiliated just pleased with the service and quality that they
provide. Check out their site they have advice on designing PCB's,
you may be able to manage with the free version of Eagle to create
the schematic and layouts.
Regards
Dez Ellis
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Perhaps you have a point, however, I am pleased to see any activity
on this list it has been very quiet recently and I will, therefore,
contribute to the debate.
> why not change the name of our club as pcbclub ?
> prasad
PCB's:- I can create my own using the laser toner method on the
special blue toner transfer paper but I use a laminator machine
instead of ironing. Two sided PCB's are possible if you are really
careful.
However, the total cost to buy the necessary equipment for this
method is not really cheap. Etchant, Copper Clad board, tinning
powder, dremel drill or similar complete with stand. Also the time
taken to etch, drill and cut to size is not trivial.
I now use http://www.olimex.com/pcb/index.html for most of my
prototypes at $26 with $5 postage this service cannot be beaten. I am
not affiliated just pleased with the service and quality that they
provide. Check out their site they have advice on designing PCB's,
you may be able to manage with the free version of Eagle to create
the schematic and layouts.
Regards
Dez Ellis
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: [AVR club] RE: Making PC boards with copy machine toner - fnatmed - Feb 6 17:47:00 2003
--- In avrclub@avrc..., dezellis <no_reply@y...> wrote:
>
> PCB's:- I can create my own using the laser toner method on the
> special blue toner transfer paper but I use a laminator machine
> instead of ironing. Two sided PCB's are possible if you are really
> careful.
Two layer boards are actually quite easy to make. Make sure that
your print both sides with around 2-3cm of free space around them.
Then use tape to make a bag of the two sheets, toner side inwards.
By holding it up to the light, you can get the two sides lined up
perfectly. Tape up three sides, leaving one side (a longer side)
open. Verify again that the sheets line up cleanly.
Then simply slide the board into the "bag" and tape the last side
shut. Now it doesn't matter if the board can move around a bit,
since the two layers are in perfect alignment.
Don't use too much pressure on the board when ironing - it tends to
smear the toner a bit. Gentle pressure does it.
Dean.
______________________________
controlSUITE™ software. Comprehensive. Intuitive. Optimized.
Real-world software for real-time control. Details Here!
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
>
> PCB's:- I can create my own using the laser toner method on the
> special blue toner transfer paper but I use a laminator machine
> instead of ironing. Two sided PCB's are possible if you are really
> careful.
Two layer boards are actually quite easy to make. Make sure that
your print both sides with around 2-3cm of free space around them.
Then use tape to make a bag of the two sheets, toner side inwards.
By holding it up to the light, you can get the two sides lined up
perfectly. Tape up three sides, leaving one side (a longer side)
open. Verify again that the sheets line up cleanly.
Then simply slide the board into the "bag" and tape the last side
shut. Now it doesn't matter if the board can move around a bit,
since the two layers are in perfect alignment.
Don't use too much pressure on the board when ironing - it tends to
smear the toner a bit. Gentle pressure does it.
Dean.
______________________________
controlSUITE™ software. Comprehensive. Intuitive. Optimized.
Real-world software for real-time control. Details Here!
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: [AVR club] RE: Making PC boards with copy machine toner - danjmaclean - Feb 11 16:46:00 2003
My lazy brain is having trouble seeing this process. But I sure like
the looks of the results posted here a week or so ago.
Could someone post some photos that show the process step-by-step?
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
the looks of the results posted here a week or so ago.
Could someone post some photos that show the process step-by-step?
(You need to be a member of avrclub -- send a blank email to avrclub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com )
Re: [AVR club] RE: Making PC boards with copy machine toner - poitsplace - Feb 13 17:42:00 2003
--- In avrclub@avrc..., "danjmaclean <captainvideo@w...>"
<captainvideo@w...> wrote:
> My lazy brain is having trouble seeing this process. But I sure
like
> the looks of the results posted here a week or so ago.
>
> Could someone post some photos that show the process step-by-step?
working on it...pictures are taken, just haven't got the text done.
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<captainvideo@w...> wrote:
> My lazy brain is having trouble seeing this process. But I sure
like
> the looks of the results posted here a week or so ago.
>
> Could someone post some photos that show the process step-by-step?
working on it...pictures are taken, just haven't got the text done.
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Copier toner...an actual guide - poitsplace - Feb 14 6:25:00 2003
Ok, finally got off my butt and made the guide. Doesn't deal with
the etching process (at this time) as there are instructions on the
bottle of etchant (and most of you probably know how to do that
already)...but it DOES explain how to use the copier toner with
coated inkjet paper. It also includes a page on how to tell if paper
is coated in the first place)
anyway...here's the link
http://www.extremecooling.org/ec/modules.php?
name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=73
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the etching process (at this time) as there are instructions on the
bottle of etchant (and most of you probably know how to do that
already)...but it DOES explain how to use the copier toner with
coated inkjet paper. It also includes a page on how to tell if paper
is coated in the first place)
anyway...here's the link
http://www.extremecooling.org/ec/modules.php?
name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=73
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